[rtbtParticipant]

Van Gundy’s strategy of constantly feeding Howard in the low post is flawed. I learned many years ago that depending upon one man destroys the flow of your offense. While Howard was putting a lot of pressure on the Celtics defense, the other 4 guys were standing around watching him. If you observed what happened when Howard missed, there were no Orlando players on the offensive glass to follow up. They were doing what I mentioned above, standing around watching Howard do his thing.

Any smart coach knows the offense must develop a flow with crisp ball movement, cutting without the ball, setting screens, and getting everyone involved in the offense. Doc Rivers is doing a much better job than Van Gundy because you never know who’s going to score when Boston has the ball. Their passes are crisp and guys are moving without the ball.

Putting aside Van Gundy’s flawed strategy you also have to realize that other than JJ Reddick, nobody else is stepping up to help Howard carry the load on offense. JJ is the only guy who seems to be aggressive, constantly driving to the hoop.

[BradfomsParticipant]

No, Boston is simply outplaying everyone in the playoffs. Their defense has finally come together again, and Paul Pierce has returned to form after both looked absolutely dismal in the back half of the season. They just got their shit together at the right time.

[rtbtParticipant]

Bradfoms, why do you think Boston is outplaying Orlando? It’s a lot more involved then things merely coming together again as you said in your post.

As I pointed out above, they’re passing the ball crisply and guys are moving without the ball. Yes they’re playing great defense but my point was pretty basic in relation to the flow of the offense. Orlando is making their job much easier on defense by constantly feeding the ball down low to Howard and then standing around, watching him make his moves. Van Gundy is operating on a flawed strategy that worked against a poorly coached Atlanta team, but it will not work against Doc Rivers.

[BradfomsParticipant]

I may have given the wrong impression in my post, I don’t disagree with everything you said. I think it’s a combination of the two. Rivers’ strategy is clearly working over Van Gundy’s, you’re absolutely right. However, if it was all coaching, Boston would have played better during the regular season as well. Unfortunately for anyone who (like me) doesn’t want to see the Celtics move on, it seems as though they’re peaking in every area possible at just the right time.

[sacphil_08Participant]

I don’t think it’s a matter if being outcoached, it’s a matter of Boston outplaying Orlando. The magic are feeding Dwight down low because Boston isn’t letting Orlando get threes like they normally do. Orlando in a sense has been forced to feed Dwight. And Orlando is crashing the boards as well as playing hard as is shown in the score of each game, it’s just with the great length and size Boston has it’s really difficult for Orlando to get alot of second chance opportunities. Boston knows that orlandos key to winning is by hitting 3s and they’ve cut that out. They’re doing so great of a job at this that Orlando isn’t even attempting as many 3s as they normally do. On offense Boston is just being patient and finding the best look and it’s obviously been working so far. The one thing they haven’t done well is sustain leads. There’s been 3 times in these game where Boston looked like they were in their way to a rout and Orlando got back into it because Boston took their foot off the acclerator. Luckily enough Orlando has made enough mistakes and their defense has held up and they’ve been able to pull out these victories but they won’t be able to do that if they want to close out the series. Also they need at least 2 of their big “4” to get 20 points. Tonight that was rondo and pierce. If that doesn’t happen they won’t win. Plain and simple. It has but if you look at the score and you look at the production of their key players, they absolutely need someone to step up with points. It’ll be interesting to see how Orlando responds to their first bit of adversity (that probably is an understatment) and whether or not Boston will look for the kill and try to get some rest before the finals.

[rtbtParticipant]

Bradfoms, thanks for clarifying your position. And yes, I completely agree that everything’s coming together for the Celtics at just the right time. I always say winning a championship involves a certain amount of luck. Getting everyone healthy at the same time is a blessing.

sacphil_08, I disagree with your position for the reasons cited above. So far, Doc Rivers is clearly out coaching Stan Van Gundy.

I want to ask you a question. If you repeatedly try the same thing and it doesn’t work, isn’t it time for a new strategy? Orlando spent 8 quarters trying to force the ball down low to Howard and it failed miserably. Would you agree that part of smart coaching in the NBA playoffs is making the kind of adjustments that puts your team in a position to win?

Van Gundy is not making those adjustments.

[sacphil_08Participant]

I agree that coaching comes to making adjustments, but boston has forced orlando out of what they are comfortable with. They are being outplayed to this point is what it is. What adjustment can you make when a team plays defense like that? They are running orlando off the 3 point line which is what they do best (orlando), rondo is much more disruptive towards nelson than any other point guard he’s faced to this point making his production reduce somewhat. Boston is just playing stifling defense and its disrupting everything orlando is doing. In basketball, if you play smothering defense and its played correctly the way boston plays it, it can dismantle your offensive gameplan. Not only do they play great team defense, but they have good individual defenders as well. When the defense gets to be as stingy as it is with boston, you find yourself forcing shots that you normally wouldnt and yes youre a pro and not supposed to force shots, its much easier said than done, even when your coach is yelling at you. Its not that orlando’s players aren’t listening its just that good looks are so hard to come by so I still believe that boston is outplaying orlando at this point. Can boston keep it up? We’ll find out but they are just outplaying them IMO and not being outcoached

[rtbtParticipant]

sacphil_08 said, “What adjustment can you make when a team plays defense like that?”

I just told you what adjustment I would make if I were the head coach. Instead of throwing the ball into Dwight Howard while the other 4 guys stand around and watch him, I would change the offensive strategy. I would do the following:

1. Run the ball up court so you can get off a good shot before the defense is set.
2. I would stop funneling the ball into Dwight Howard. I would run a motion offense concentrating on setting picks to set up Orlando’s excellent outside shooters.
3. In sum, Dwight Howard would no longer be the focal point of the offense. Ball movement, setting screens, and cutting without the ball are all antidotes to a stifling half court defense.

[sacphil_08Participant]

An example of someone outcoaching the other was in the dallas/san antonio series. Carlisle stubbornly stuck with the lineup he wanted rather than the one that couldve been most effective. I dont have official stats on hand but im positive that when brendan haywood was in the game they outscored and outplayed san antonio but for whatever reason carlisle stuck with dampier who cant catch, is more of a liability on offense than haywood because he has no moves, is a liability on defense (what hes supposed to be good at) because when he gets switched onto guards he has no lateral quickness and puts up little to no resistance whereas haywood is good enough to make the guard shoot a jump shot rather than blow by him on a constant basis. Dampier also fell for every duncan pump fake which allowed san antonio to get into the penalty early in quarters. Also carlisle never played beabouis until they were on the verge of elimination and when he was in he scored almost every time he had the ball. He gave butler inconsistent minutes, when he was supposed to be the other piece to the puzzle who could score on his own without anyone else’s help. Jason kidd also played too long, as he would get burned regularly by parker and or hill. Also, he never adjusted to the spurs and all the corner 3 point looks they were getting. They were bringing help to stop drives at the rim when they shouldve just trusted their bigs to do their jobs, and it allowed hill to hit the open looks in the corner as well as everyone else. Another issue was how often shawn marion would be in. In the end of games when you need no liabilities on offense marion shouldnt be in, rather butler but he had in marion. Dallas couldve easily beaten the spurs in that series but carlisle was vastly outcoached and it was apparent. He made no successful adjustments, he didnt play to his teams strengths (i forgot to mention that he didnt put enough shooters in when they brought those hard double teams on dirk for him to kick to) and was outcoached. THAT is being outcoached. Van gundy has tried different things and because of the high level boston is playing at they are disrupting everything orlando wants to do. The one thing i think that could benefit orlando the most is if they started pietrus in barnes spot because he can play better defense than barnes and he can shoot alot better than him as well. If you noticed out of the 2 games thus far, if boston does ever leave anyone open to shoot 3s its barnes whereas with pietrus you cant get away with that. That could be something that could break down boston’s defense because then theyd have 4 legitimate shooters on the 3 point line and one of them is bound to get open and maybe even allow rashard lewis to be effective in the series

[sacphil_08Participant]

You must not play basketball. You take what the defense is giving you rather than try to force what they are taking away. Also boston is shooting 46% from the field for the series which is just good enough to avoid orlando getting out in transition. You cant run the ball up and down the court if youre constantly pulling it out of the net. You can take it from out of bounds and run up the court like an idiot playing a pick up game at the park. And lastly they arent “funneling” the ball to dwight. He’s getting position and there dropping it to him hoping a double team will come and then they can try to get some looks at 3s that way. If they are allowing dwight to go one on one then look to get him the ball. He had 30 points last night. Orlando couldve and maybe shouldve won that game but carters missed free throws and a couple of bad decisions cost them.

[rtbtParticipant]

sacphil_08, what are you 18 years old and been around basketball for maybe 5 years? I’ve been around basketball all of my life and will probably forget more than you ever learned.

When and where did I say Orlando should run up the court like idiots playing a pick up game? If Boston is shooting 46% on 2 point FG attempts, and only 33% on 3 point FG attempts, that means they are missing close to 60% of their shots. That means on 6 out of every 10 shots, Orlando has an opportunity to run the court. They almost never do that, they walk the ball up after every shot.

Anyone who knows and understands basketball realizes that one of the key strategies against a stifling half court defense is to run the court whenever possible.

But that’s only one strategy Orlando is ignoring. Despite what you say, Orlando is funneling the ball into D.Howard. Unless there is something wrong my aging eyes, Orlando’s first option is kicking the ball down low to Dwight. When that occurs, the other 4 players often stand around and watch. And that’s the part that’s killing the Magic. They need to run a motion offense with lots of weak side screens, along with pick and rolls to put more diverse pressure on the Celtics defense.

I clearly mentioned that Howard was effective in the post, did you read that? But that’s exactly what Boston wants, they would much rather take everyone else out of their comfort zone and let Howard go one on one while their 3 big men use their compliment of 18 fouls to put him on the line. They don’t care how many points Dwight scores as long as they take everyone else out of their rhythm. Can’t you see that? And can’t you see how effective that strategy has been for Boston?

[rtbtParticipant]

sacphil_08 said, “Van gundy has tried different things….”. I disagree, the offense hasn’t changed at all. All four guys stand around and watch Dwight Howard attack the basket. Although Howard’s been effective, it essentially turned the Orlando offense into a stagnant, stand around and watch Dwight offense which hasn’t worked. I’m going to repeat the time tested solution to a stifling half court offense.

1. Run the ball up court so you can get off a good shot before the defense is set.
2. I would stop funneling the ball into Dwight Howard. I would run a motion offense concentrating on setting picks to set up Orlando’s excellent outside shooters.

In sum, ball movement, setting screens, and cutting without the ball will help negate Boston’s defense. Right now Orlando is doing exactly what Boston wants. Hence, Doc Rivers is out coaching Van Gundy.

[stanford hoops]

i cant agree. the celtics are out playing them. its not the coaches fault that vince didnt play well or lewis has dissappeared or that jameer’s defense went away or howard not scoring much in game one or players missing open shots.

[theasianpersuasionParticipant]

Everything you guys have said is reasonable, but you could also add some complacency to the list of Orlando’s troubles. Admit it, teams that sweep twice in a row probably have a bit of overconfidence.

Coaching is only one part of it, but there’s some blame to put on the players too.

[rtbtParticipant]

lolontharoflcop…, let me say that I am not in any way holding the players blameless. Other than Howard and Reddick, most Orlando players are not even coming close to performing up to standards. So go ahead and blame them and you won’t see me complain.

Having said that, it’s the coach’s job to put his players in a position to win and Van Gundy isn’t doing that with his terrible strategy. On the other side of the court, Doc Edwards has been masterful with his game plans on both offense and defense.

[stanford hoops]

how is he not putting them in position to win?..he had a good play and told the team to call timeout when they get the rebound. i dont see how he isnt putting them in a position to win. he gives them good plays that have gotten them open but they just havnt hit the shots ( im talking to you nelson and lewis) cant blame that on coaching. his plays work when they run them and not try to go one on one( nelson, vince) at the wrong time. he doesnt control turnovers either

[B-ball fanParticipant]

Dwight Howard is still effective in the flow of the game when he isn’t force fed the ball in the low post. Orlando should run more pick and roll plays with their good shooters handling the ball, and they really need to move the ball better to get open shots, rather than relying on isolating Howard or VC. Their pick and roll can be effective with Nelson or Redick because they can shoot off the top off the pick and roll, and Howard can grab offensive boards and finish around the hoop.

[sacphil_08Participant]

However you want to dice it rtbt it’s not being outcoached it’s being outplayed. Like mentioned in one of the other posts, Nelson and Carter chose to go 1 on 1 and it cost them. You add carters misses free throws and there’s the difference. Those things you can tell your players to do and whether or not they do them all the time is something else entirely. In response to your ignorant thought of me being 18, I’m 21 and play college ball and have for 2 years after playing high school 4 years as a point guard so I think I have a pretty good understanding having played organized. You must not have played organized, you just watch from the couch at home and think you could coach like everyone else. Get your facts straight

[Author]

Posts