Please note, my comments are based upon seeing only one game vs. Miami last night. If you know something I missed in their previous games, I'm all ears.
Houston spent all of that money for Jeremy Lin and he's not running the offense, he's deferring to his backcourt teammate. Lin repeatedly gave the ball to Harden as soon as he crossed the mid-court line. Harden in turn would often go one on one, throwing up low percentage shots.
Houston is a very young and talented team. Omer Asik was a beast last night and I thought Chandler Parsons was a chump when he came out of Florida, but I was wrong, the guy can play. Patterson played very well at the PF position.
I think Houston could be a very good this year if they allow Lin to be a PG and actually run the offense. If that happens, Harden will get his scoring opportunities within the framework of the offense, as opposed to going one on one so often. In that scenario, I think Harden will be a better player and the Houston offense will be far more productive.
Truthfully I don't see a problem, Harden is just as good or even better passer then lin ,just as long as Harden knows when to set his teammates up is should be know problem, lin is also good at playing off-ball also, their both very well rounded players
they have a bigger problem...harden's ego. It is obvious now to me at least that he is all about himself and what he can do. hes a great player yes but last night during the last seconds of the game they ran a play for lin to shoot the game tying 3-point shot but harden decided not to give up the ball and took a tough shot with lebron in his face whereas lin would have had a better shot and is a proven clutch performer as well.
harden makes plays for his teammates but this definitely showed me what he is about for the most part or at least for now.
You must not have seen Lin air ball the 3 the possession before. Harden made the right pass to Parson in the corner who made the right pass to Lin. Lin was short on the shot by at least a foot. He choked.
other than that, I have to agree that Harden has a bit of an ego and is trying to prove he belongs in the elite. I think as the season goes along and Harden keeps playing at his all star pace, he will settle down some.
KingOfBums, I couldn't agree more with you last post and obviously I completely disagree with ASAP. Harden was a problem last night, not the solution. He shot 6 for 17 and many of those misses were low percentage shots.
If Lin is not running the offense, then he's just another player. His special skills allow him to control the game on offense and get everyone involved. So far, he's not doing that in Houston, at least not last night against Miami.
Houston should create all sorts of problems for everyone. Parson's is a point forward, Linn and Harden are innerchangable at guard and when Royce White is out there you hhave 4 ball handler and passers. I think they'll come around.
Lin passed off to Harden becuz 6'8,240lbs Lebron was guarding the Rocket player that bringing up the ball....lol..
But mostly it was becuz Harden is dangerous with the ball in his hands,becuz teams dont know if he'll pass it or shoot it....
Lin is a scoring PG, I would not class him as a pass first PG and with Harden off the ball he'd get double teamed so maybe giving him the ball helps them spread the play a bit more. I agree that the guys can be interchangeable but just hope the season does not debvelop into some sort of shooting contest amongst themselves as they are the team's main two scoring options.
Asik is looking very good this year and should develop his game as well as having good fantasy value with his rebounding numbers and the buckets they feed him.
Hitster, I think you have it wrong. Yes Lin can score but what makes him stand out is his ability to run the offense and get everyone involved. And that's definitely not Harden's strength because he's a scorer.
Lin is not running the offense which makes him an average PG, plus it stifles Houston on the offensive end of the court.
I haven't watched a full Rockets game yet this year, but I have seen various parts of various games, including the 4th quarter of last nights game. I'll just cover a couple quotes from this thread and address them:
"Yes Lin can score but what makes him stand out is his ability to run the offense and get everyone involved. And that's definitely not Harden's strength because he's a scorer."
--I'm not sure where you come off saying that getting people involved (aka finding the open guy) isn't a strength for Harden. He proved himself to be a great set-up man in OKC and is continuing the trend on the Rockets. Who was the dude hitting Chandler Parsons in the corner for his three in the 4th quarter? Or making the initial pass, which in turn led to the Jeremy Lin air-ball in the final minute?
"Parson's is a point forward"
--Chandler Parson's nbadraft.net profile mentions him playing point-forward sometimes in college so I see why you might of wrote this, but I have yet to see him do it in the NBA.
I was wrong about Chandler Parsons when he came out of college. I don't mind admitting my mistake and ackowledging the guy is a big time player. And yes, he does fit the description of a Point Forward who can score.
Please don't use one pass to a wide open Parsons as the reason we should believe Harden is a PG disguised as a SG. If you would have watched the entire game last night you would have seen Harden throwing up one low percentage shot after another. That's why his shooting percentage was so low.
Look, this isn't a knock on Harden but he just isn't a PG, he has a scorer's mentality. If he will allow Lin to play PG and run the offense, I'm confident Harden will benefit just as much as the team.
Yeah,alot of Houston players have solid all around games.......So i dont understand why u say they dont have fundamentals?
Harden is the better playmaker so I don't have a problem with Lin deferring to him.
Harden's going through a phase right now. He's trying to justify his contract and prove that he can be the man, a legit #1 scoring option. I expect McHale to rein him back in a little bit whenever he gets back.
You actually believe Harden is a better playmaker than Lin? I don't think so!
Absolutely. He's better at breaking his man down off the dribble. He's super efficient off the PnR. He's a better finisher and he can make more athletic plays in the paint, including drive and kicks.
Lin is a below average starting PG. He has trouble beating his man off the dribble without the help of a ball screen, he's not a dynamic ball-handler and he can get hung up in the paint, without the body control to adjust to the help defense. I'd very much rather have the ball in Harden's hands.
I agree with everything you said about Harden in the first paragraph above .
I only partially agree with your assessment of Jeremy Lin whom I think is a far superior playmaker and a guy who sees the entire court. Harden is not a PG, he's a SG who has the ability to pass out to the open man when he drives to the basket. He is not someone you want running your team while it's the complete opposite with Lin.
Why do you think Houston paid big money for Lin? It's because of his ability to run the offense, get everyone involved, set up his teammates, and score enough to keep the defense honest. In sum, I think he's an above average PG with the potential to become one of the best in the league. Let's not forget he only played 25 games last year and a handful this season.
Honestly, I thought they acquired him for marketing purposes. He only had a 2 week stretch of good basketball.
His shooting ability, his lack of body control, his lack of a left hand, his inability to consistently beat his man off the bounce without the help of a ball screen, his inexperience, his lack of shiftiness, his finishing ability, etc all lead me to believe he's in the bottom 3rd of the league as a starting PG. Given the level of PG play across the league, on most teams he'd be a back up IMO.
Siggy, now I get it. You just don't like Jeremy Lin. That's OK but it shouldn't cloud your assessment of him. Now I understand why you think Harden is a better playmaker. Hmmmmmmmmmm...............
Siggy, as you already know, most players can have one or two big games. But if someone tears up the league over a 25 game stretch, that's not an accident. Believe what you want about Lin but I think he's a future star. As I mentioned previously, he has a total 32 games with NY and Houston under his belt so he's still very inexperienced. Within 2 or 3 months I think we'll be able to make a more accurate assessment of Jerenmy Lin and how he will fit into the NBA hierarchy.
One thing I can tell you without a moment's hesitation, I would take Jeremy Lin over Raymond Felton every day of the week.
No, I just don't think he's that great of a basketball player. When I break down his actual skills, strengths and weaknesses, he's not that impressive.
He did great in a very PG centric system, with ultimate spacing and having the entire middle of the floor to work with. It's the same system where both Felton and Chris Duhon looked like all-stars. He's not playing in that system anymore. Now he's playing alongside a player who's better than he is offensively, both in terms of playmaking and scoring.
Jeremy Lin did better than great last season, he was phenomenal and withstood an avalanche of pressure and attention, the likes of which I never saw in my entire life. Although you're right about the system helping him big time, what Lin accomplished last season was mind boggling. Yes Duhon and Felton had above average seasons playing for D'Antoni, but what they did was nothing compared to Lin's achievments.
Now we need to find out how good Lin really is and that's why I'm so eager to watch the results of the next 70 games or so. But if Lin isn't playing PG and running the offense, Houston is not taking advantage of the skill set which made him so attractive to them. If I'm the Houston head coach it's very simple, Lin runs the offense and Harden's my shooting guard. It's not that complicated.
In about 4-5 months we'll have a much better handle on how good Jeremy Lin really is. Will he turn out to be the below average PG you proclaim or will he become a star in Houston? I'm old enough to remember when Steve Nash came out of Santa Clara when everyone said he wasn't a good enough athlete to play PG in the NBA. All I can remember is Nash driving around his opponents as if they were standing in quick sand for the last 15 years or so.
What I don't understand is why everyone even talks about Lin's inability to go left. Manu and Harden can't go right.
If he's so effective going right why would he have to go left?
Since the first 2 games when Harden blew up the NBA and the rest of the league took notice, every team has made Harden a priority. Whats needed now is another adjustment. Harden is running into the same problem Kobe had... not that I'm comparing Harden and Kobe. When the D is locked in on you, you need to adjust your game... or continue firing up tought shots. What made Harden so good in OKC was his efficiency. I know he's the man now in Houston but Harden should stick to what the defense gives him. Tight D and double teams should lead to opportunites for other players... not trying to fight your way throught them. Fighting your way through high energy D is not the way to go. Find a way to let the D defeat itself. High energy D leads to overcompensating on D, which creates holes that need to be scrambled back to be covered. Thats your chance to strike.
"I was wrong about Chandler Parsons when he came out of college. I don't mind admitting my mistake and ackowledging the guy is a big time player. And yes, he does fit the description of a Point Forward who can score.":
--I thought Parsons was destined for Europe but he proved me wrong too....so what's your point there? Now let me bring you back to the begining of the thread where you start off by saying "Please note, my comments are based upon seeing only one game vs. Miami last night. If you know something I missed in their previous games, I'm all ears".....so how can you go about saying that Chandler Parsons fits the description of a Point Forward when you have only seen one game of his this season? Maybe you saw something in him last year that screamed Point Forward to you, but I doubt it as seeing how he only dished out 2.1 assists/game in over 28 minutes.
"Please don't use one pass to a wide open Parsons as the reason we should believe Harden is a PG disguised as a SG. If you would have watched the entire game last night you would have seen Harden throwing up one low percentage shot after another. That's why his shooting percentage was so low."
--Please don't put words in my mouth, as I never said or indicated that Harden is a PG disguised as a SG. I think he is a playmaking SG, huge difference. As far as the low shooting percentage, I hear ya on that; just 43% from the field is rough. However, is anyone really that surprised that Harden is having a little turbulance trying to adjust from being a 6th man to being the go-to-guy? They shouldn't be if they are...
I understand the point you are trying to make RBT: Houston gives Lin 3-25 and yet they don't even have him handling the ball in crunch time. I can't blame McHale for putting the ball in his best players hands though, especially when the other option is air-balling wide open threes in the final minute.
First, McHale is not coaching Houston.
Second, the things I saw Parsons do over the entire course of the game are the kinds of skills you rarely see in an NBA forward. I didn't judge him one play but the manner in which he played all night and the moves he made which completely surprised me. His shots just happened to go in last night but even if he was missing, I was very impressed with the skill set Parsons demonstrated throughout the game.
And there you go again, judging Lin on that one air ball while I'm talking about the entire game. If I'm coaching Houston, the ball is in Lin's hands starting in the first quarter and I want him to run the offense all night. As I stated before, I think that will also make Harden a better player.
Finally, I was talking about last night when Harden shot only 6 out of 17. That's a very low percentage using anyone's criteria.
"First, McHale is not coaching Houston."
O yea? What do you want to bet on that?
"Second, the things I saw Parsons do over the entire course of the game are the kinds of skills you rarely see in an NBA forward. I didn't judge him one play but the manner in which he played all night and the moves he made which completely surprised me. His shots just happened to go in last night but even if he was missing, I was very impressed with the skill set Parsons demonstrated throughout the game."
So what 'moves' did he make that you 'rarely see in an NBA forward'? Please explain this one for me.
"And there you go again, judging Lin on that one air ball while I'm talking about the entire game. If I'm coaching Houston, the ball is in Lin's hands starting in the first quarter and I want him to run the offense all night. As I stated before, I think that will also make Harden a better player."
That's a rediculous statement because Lin does run the offense for at least the first 3 quarters, if not the whole game. Maybe he doesn't have more assists because he is too busy getting up his almost 11 shots a game (shooting 37% along the way)? Sorry that the offense in the 4th quarter happens to change from running through their second best option to their first.
"Finally, I was talking about last night when Harden shot only 6 out of 17. That's a very low percentage using anyone's criteria."
Yea I know and agreed with you on Harden's shooting % in the previous post (stat from reg. season totals): "As far as the low shooting percentage, I hear ya on that; just 43% from the field is rough."
I Never mentioned Harden's shooting percentage over the season, that came from you. I was talking only about last night's game. But since you brought it up, check out his stats since the first two games. He was hotter than a firecracker and then he came back down to earth. Leave out the first two games and then come up with a shooting percentage for the season. If Harden keeps taking the kind of low percentage shots I saw last night, he's going to have a long season.
Jeremy Lin did not regularly run the offense all night and that was the point of this thread. Did you miss that? More often than not, when Lin crossed mid-court he merely flipped the ball over to Harden, deferring to his teammate. In fact, Harden actually brought the ball up court far more than a SG should.
Parsons showed me a 3 point shot that was on the money, no surprise there. However, when the defender came up to guard him, unlike many stationary 3 point shooters, Parsonse drove around him and displayed some nifty moves driving to the basket. Finally, when he drove to the hoop and was picked up by weak side help, he made some very nice passes to the open man. What more can you ask for in a small forward?
There aren't many SF's who have that entire skill set. Once again, I was very surprised because I thought very little of Parsons when he came out of FL.
Did you miss the news on McHale? He took a leave of abscence earlier this week to deal with family problems his daughter is dealing with back in MN. Last night Kelvin Sampson coached the team.
Do know that I read all you have to say and I'm not going to nitpick or respond to anything; our opinions just differ too much to reach a conclusion so I'm gonna end it. Just know I did read it.
On McHale, I simply didn't put 2 + 2 together and thought you literally didn't think he was the coach of the team. My mistake.
Harden is better then Lin.
Lin may improve to a "star" level but I doubt it. Sometimes I see Lin do things like slice that backdoor pass between 2 defenders to hit Harden on the baseline for a driving dunk. Other times I see Lin bring the ball up the court and struggle to get by his man to setup the offense. Lin is not a 1 on 1 player at this time. Lin also has trouble when faced with sticky D aswell. If you focus on those 2 points Lin looks lucky to be in the position he's in at the moment. With that said, Lin makes amazing decisions with the ball when given the chance. Passing is one thing but when he's attacking the basket or running the pick and roll he often looks fantastic. He has an excellent shot, decent athleticism and plays with a high basketball IQ. He will get better... but "star" level is a reach in the traditional sense of the word. Famous yes, Good starter probably, Allstar no.
The issue isn't who's a better player, why do some guys in this thread keep bringing that up?
- Harden is obviously a far better shooting guard then Lin and
- Lin is a better point guard then Harden
In my opinion, anyone who doesn't see that is missing the thrust of this thread. In light of that, let Jeremy Lin do what he does best and that is run the offense, set up his teammates, and get everyone involved.
And that approach will enable Harden to be a more effective shooting guard who gets his scoring opportunities within the framework of the offense. And yes I know Harden has the ability to hit the open man while driving to the basket, but he's not a PG.