With the Return of Rubio from injury and the Whining of Kevin Love, i must know something,
Who would minnesota have as the Franchise Player? Ricky Rubio or Kevin Love?
Surely Kevin Love showed he can easily get instant double double figures per game but it does not translate to winning games, he has the unique skill set of truly Inside and Outside play, he has a great IQ on Positioning himself down in the low post, an olympic medalist, but he is beginning to show that he don't want to play for the Wolves, there have been articles posted before,
While ricky rubio is a crafty play maker, some says he is the Pistol pete of the new era he makes his team mates better and shows he could lead, and still show he could improve on shooting the ball
but maybe kevin love would change his mind when Rubio comes back form injury when they face dallas
This question is so dumb
I disagree with you ShowOFF. The question is not dumb, but it IS irrelevant. If the Wolves cannot make the Playoffs w/ both Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio, it doesn't matter who's Minny's "franchise player".
Ricky Rubio. I surprised myself a bit with how immediately I came to this conclusion. But he is such a savvy playmaker that if he keeps developing he could be in a league of his own when it comes to pass first point guards. He's a natural. I hope that he hasn't lost anything due to his injury, we'll see soon enough.
Kevin Love is a fantastic player don't get me wrong but I think he has a lower ceiling (a better rebounding David Lee with legit 3p range? that's scary good), I am not sure how much more he will be able to improve. Personally I think the idea that Kevin Love wants to get out of town have been blown wildly out of proportion, he would have to be mad to want to leave now, this is such a young team perhaps only a year of healthy development or two away from being a real contender...
Regardless I cannot wait to watch the game tonight!!
I don't think that Love really is leaving anytime soon but I still don't think this is a dumb question at all...
the question should have been, who has the better value, Love or Rubio, sorry The_ShowOff for dissapointing your standards on posting up questions
now this question isn't dumb.
I like them both, but no question I would take Rubio. Rubio is soo good and makes everyone around him better. He makes the fans more into the game. His defense, energy, and vision are amazing. He just has a bigger impact on the Wolves than Love does. Tonight for example, the Wolves are down 13 and looking lifeless. Rubio comes in or the first time in 9 months and imediatly everything changes. The Target center is rocking like its a playoff game. Every player starts playing with more emotion and energy and making the extra pass. Derrick Williams starts looking like he was supposed to look. The wolves go from down 13 to up 9 at the half. That doesnt happen with Love.
wait how high are we thinking rubio's potential is? at best he will probably be a 15 and 10 player. he's never going to carry a team bc his scoring is limited. rubio is a really good complementary piece as in order to maximize his passing skills, you need scorers ideally. Kevin love is also a shaky franchise player but play style wise, i would take something like Kevin love and a league average pg over ricky rubio and a league average scorers
You must not have seen the impact Rubio had in the wolves last year. When he went down the wheels completely fell off.
well yea but i would imagine the same thing would have happened if kevin love got injured instead of rubio. this years team is much better than last year, when rubio went down, barea was his replacement and if kevin love went down, derrick williams/beasley would have been the replacement. im sure the same thing would have happened. i'm not saying ricky rubio is a bad player but im just saying a pass first point guard, especially one with limited scoring potential is not your top priority when you build a team. (btw i'm going with kevin love from last year not this years version at least until he gets back on track)
Is it cool to hate Kevin Love now?
Why does picking Rubio mean we hate Love?
No, but I've seen a barrage of posts this week about Kevin Love not being all that good.
He has been terrible this year at everything except rebounding. That being said, once he gets in basketball shape and his hand heals better, i have no doubt he will go back to being the normal Kevin Love. He needs to stop complaining to the refs though
I don't think terrible is the right word. He has been underperforming for his ability, but he is still averaging a double-double. Some people need to relax, it's just a few games, he will be fine. Plus this team is under-maned right now with a plethora of injuries.
No he has been terrible. I have seen every game and that is a good word for it. He his taking 17 shots a game and only making 34%. Taking 5 3's and only making 20%. Is missing wide open shots, missing close shots, getting stuffed, complaining to the ref's instead of running back on defense, and has horrible body language. 7/35 the past 2 games. He also cant make free throws right now. He has been terrible.
He is coming back super early from a broken hand right? A lot of people are saying his shot is different and coming off his hand differently than usual. He just injured his thumb last night, probably something to do with compensation factor. Rubio is great but I'll take the best PF in the league if I had to choose. Just build around him better than Minn has.
I would take Rubio easily based on the simple fact that he makes everyone around him better and he can be a great all around defender. Kevin Love provides, great rebounding and a tremendous offense but his defense is still lacking, and he doesn't necessarily make those around him better.
Also with both of them, I think this could be a great team and they are a playoff team with both, they were last year until Rubio got injured. Now having Kirelenko, Shved, Pekovic playing great, and if they can get some good consistent, calming production from Brando Roy when he returns this time could challenge some people.
Rubio, best passer in the league
I said it last year and I'll say it again, the answer is clearly Rubio.
I like Rubio, but we are still rating him on a very limited sample size, about half of a regular season. And for all the talk about how he improves his teammates around him with his passing(which I agree he does to an extent) the wolves as a team saw solid increases in both points per game and team fg% after he got injured last year.
Probably because Rubio had the worst FG% in the NBA last season and that weighed the overall down a lot.
All Minnesota needs is a legit wing scorer to be considered in the upper echelon of the West. Rudy Gay anyone?
I'm just saying a random wing, but you guys get the gist. They could always trade up the draft to get one of the plethora of wings this year coming out of college too.
Nbaflguy what do you suggest?
Rudy Gays shot selection would kill this team... he's a 1on1 shooter, not a break down player.
A good consistent scorer could do the trick, a stephen jackson or Wes mathews or danny green?, (i'm a bit doubtful of Brandon Roy with his injuries), playing with a guard like rubio would benefit those spot up shooters,
There are players who put up stats and there are players who make teams better. Love is a stat guy and Rubio is about making winning plays. You keep Rubio and jettison Love if it ever came down to it. Its not even close. Rubio could be a championship PG that drives a team... I'm hard pressed to visualize Kevin Love in any type of role approaching the signifigance of Rubio's contributions.
Kahn was right when he said Love is a 4th option on a championship team. River09 (see above in this thread) said Love is a better rebounding David Lee with 3 point range. I think thats pretty fair. Love is not a guy who you throw the ball into the post and say..."go to work". He hustles and probably has the best box out in the league, but i wouldn't say that Love is a positional advantage on most nights. He is productive because he hustles and plays smart but many of the rebounds Love gets could be had by another teammate...Love just grabs them instead while his other teammates defer. There is nothing particularly special about Kevin Love and he is certainly not worth a max contract. I'm sure I'll get negged for that while many people will spit out all these crazy numbers and stats to make their case. I'm not talking numbers here...just watch the game and look at the value of the stats Loves gets in relation to the outcome of the game. Typically, Love's production is inflated and not overly useful to the success of the team. Tyson Chandler is a player who puts up half the stats... and I'd take Chandler any day of the week over Kevin Love.
Rubio doesn't care about stats and doesn't care about beating the other teams PG with 1 on 1 plays. Rubio is all about finding the best way to get the ball into the hoop using the pieces around him. He plays the game in a different way than American culture is accustomed too. It takes a very special player to do what Rubio does. First game in 9 months and he puts up 9 assists in 18 mins. He's not in game shape and this is what happens. Teammates relish playing with him and for him. They push themselves to work harder because they know they will be rewarded.
Rubio is a team changer. Garnett is a team changer. Chandler is a team changer. Kevin Love? Not so much
Love keeps saying the Wolves weren't winning because he needed more help. How about helping out in a different way? Involve teammates, help get them going before looking for your own shot, learn to be a productive passer, play lock down defense. The Wolves could move on without Love... they couldn't do the same without Rubio. Rubio is virtually irreplacable.
One last thing...
I know people on this site aren't a big fan of +- , but Rubio is almost always a + during his playing time.
thats the answer that i was looking for when i started this thread, i highly favored ricky rubio since his days in Barca, but i want to see on what other people would say,
I believe Rubio because look what happened last year when he went down!!! Kevin Love is a great player an All Star ! But his numbers were also amazing last year thanks to Rubio...
Wow, considering Love's numbers are pretty much the same on a per minute basis every year he has been in the league that Rubio is amazing. So you are saying Rubio was helping Love all those years without even being on the team. Truly special player. Great that Love was able to score and rebound for the Olympic team this summer, thanks to Rubio's support. And Love hasn't played a minute with Rubio this year and he is averaging 19 and 14 while getting back into shape. Yes, thank god for Rubio.
Rubio is a great passing PG. He will make everyone better. But Love isn't dependent on Rubio.
I hope Rubio recovers 100% from his ACL injury. He reminds me of Rondo without the moody attitude. It's hard not to like Rubio. His teammates love to play with him and he makes everyone better.
I'm not going to read a thread that starts off by saying scoring 20+ points on good shooting plus grabbing 13+ rebounds per game does not translate into winning games. Geothermal do you also think that Dwight Howard is also a useless player because the Lakers are losing? Love and Howard are stars. But even stars can't carry really terrible teammates. (Note, Lebron probably can, but there is only one Lebron.)
Love was great last year and has been great every year he has been in the league. He has also, up until now, played on a team that started Darko Millic, started Beasly and gave serious run to Wes Johnson. Darko is now out of the league. Wes Johnson can't get burn on a bad Phoenix team and Beasley is rumored to be close to being released while he continue to flit with the dubious distinction of having taken more shots than he has scored points last year. Many games last year three of the Wolves starters are guys who basically look like they can't hold onto an NBA job. And yet despite this, the Wolves record is somehow a reflection that Love suxx.
The Wolves will win this year. They need all their players to contend in the deep Western conference. Rubio is important but he is not nearly as valuable as Love. Love is top five at his position. No one can disagree with that. Rubio is a good player and I like his game, but not top ten at his position.
well im not saying that Love is not a useless player, just like what some.One said above, he is grabbing rebound from his team mates, and its like your contradicting yourself, your are saying that he has crappy players last year?, having Darko, beasly and wes johnson, thats why he was averaging that many, like what kahn said he is likely the 4th option on a championship team,
remember when rubio fell down to injury? what the hell happened to the Timberwolves?, and lets say instead of Rubio, Love went down with injury?, i still think the Wolves would be gunning for the playoffs last year, fighting for the 8th seed, what does kevin love do that derrick williams and beasly cant do?, well beasly i doubt but derrick williams plays better with Rubio,
I like Rubio's game. But here are PGs I would trade Rubio straight up for:
Steph Curry (just on ability, the injury concern might give me pause)
Steve Nash (assuming I just wanted one season to go for a Championship)
J. Kidd (same assumption)
Here is list of PFs I would trade Love for straight up:
(I'm assuming Lebron and KD are at SF, so not eligible for this trade.)
Anyone feel different? If you think Rubio is so important for the Wolves then he must be irreplaceable and Love very replaceable. So what do your lists look like?
you were making a few good points in this thread til u said u would trade Rubio for Nash or Kidd.
both Rubio and Love are complimentary players on championship teams. I dont see how Rubio is clearly better or more valuable. I think you could put Love in a lot of contender situations and he could be the piece that gets them over the top. I agree that the sample size on Rubio is too small to base team success on if he were in a different situation. If he has much better players around him would he be that much more effective?
I just meant this year for a championship run, not in the long run. And yes, I think Nash and Kidd are better than Rubio. But I'm kind of a huge Kidd fan and I attribute most of New York's success this year to him. Much of that is the culture change he is able to bring to the team.
If Love is such an average PF, please offer up the PFs in the league that are so much better than him. That's the main point of my argument. There are plenty of people who would replace Kidd and Nash in my argument above with John Wall and DWill. Same point. There are lots of good PGs that are better or comparable to Rubio. Who are the PFs who are better than Love? Lebron and Melo might be, but will they play a whole season at PF, I don't think so.
I don't like the Howard example you made... I don't care what Howard's numbers are right now. He's CLEARLY not the same guy he was in Orlando at this point. He's not having the same impact, especially at the defensive end. IF he was, there's no way the Lakers would be losing. I don't think Howard had terrible teammates in Orlando, but that's not a playoff team if he's not on it.
I know you're a huge Love supporter, but how does he make his teammates better at either end of the floor? I think Love is very good, but he's a numbers guy. He's great at getting his numbers. He's not really a low post player or a player who draws double teams.
And you have to be joking writing you'd trade Rubio straight up for an old Steve Nash and Jason Kidd at the end of their careers lol. Seriously... What in the world are you smoking? Rubio has to come back fully from his torn ACL/LCL, but he looks like he could put himself in that class with Rajon Rondo as this generation's Kidd.
For Kidd and Nash I said if I wanted to win a championship right now this season I would make that trade. You'd rather have Rubio leading your team into the playoffs this year instead of Kidd or Nash? I'd ask you what you are smoking. Rubio is nice and all that but Nash is a two time MVP and Kidd has just revolutionized the entire offensive play of the team with the best record in the NBA. They are both Hall of Famers and still playing at high level. So yes if I wanted to win a playoff series this year, I'd rather have those guys instead of Rubio. Of course for the long term I'd rather have Rubio on my team. I thought that was clearly implied. My main point is that Love is the best PF in the game right now and there really isn't much of an argument to be had on that point. If you think he isn't the top PF, who would you trade Love for? While Rubio is behind a lot of guys at this point in his career, though he has great upside.
Love does plenty for his team to make them better. How about 14+ rebounds per game? How about 20+ points per game? You can have both if you want it from him. If you didn't need his scoring he could easily be back to leading the league in rebounding by a large margin. I bet Love's scoring is going to be down this year because the Wolves have so many offensive weapons. But his rebounding might bounce back from last year which was the worst of his career on a per minute basis.
I've said it before and I will say it again, evaluating guys just on their ability to score in ISOs is something that needs to change. You don't seem to value Love because he doesn't have a great traditional post-up game. And you and others dismiss the fact that he scores and rebounds as just hustling. Somehow you think he can't score ignoring that he got 26 points per game last year on above average TS%. There is skill required to consistently be able to get open and finish even if you don't do it out of an ISO or post-up. Love's got those skills.
Howard isn't the same player, but it is also silly to say that the Lakers are losing because of him. He is obviously still a very good center. I just think it is bizarre to pin the blame for the Wolves losses over the last few years on Love (which is what the OP was doing) when they were playing three terrible guys (Darko, Johnson and Beasley). Same thing for the Lakers. They are playing some terrible guys some major minutes. Howard isn't as good on defense as he used to be, but it isn't like you could trade Howard for another center and all of a sudden the Lakers would be better.
Rubio and Love are made for each other. I just want to get it out of the way that surrounding these two with less talented players would make them a championship contender. Rubio and Love with Afflalo, Granger and Deandre Jordan and a good bench would certainly compete for a championship in their primes. Love is a top 3 rebounder in the league, and a top 3 stretch 4 offensively. Rubio made the Wolves better because he had a first option, and could get the ball to him in the proper places.
Take the Knicks. Just because the Knicks are better with real PGs like Felon and Kidd over Lin and Douglas, it doesnt mean that theyre more important than Carmelo.
What this comes down to is whats more important, a first option post player? Or a true court general? With the movement to a more open, smaller NBA, point guard seems to be a more valuable position. But to me, a 13 rebound a game player is so rare and controls possession quantity far more than a PG. Point guards control the possession quality.
BTW, i'm not a kevin love hater, i love the two of them playing together and is thrilled that rubio is back,