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Let's get RACIAL!!

tli232
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Let's get RACIAL!!

I was watching Russell Peters' Red White and Brown and decided to look at the NBA Draft from a racial point of view. I assure everyone that it is not my intention to stir up any bad blood on this forum. This is purely for the sake of analyzing the NBA draft.

I decided to see the bust ratio in the NBA lottery during the past 10 years when dividing draftees into two general racial groups: Black and White. People like Mike Bibby (mixed) swing to the Black side to make things easier to calculate. I start with the 97 Draft until the 2006 draft.

I define a bust as a player blatantly under performing his Draft slot in the lottery with respect to the strength of the draft , regardless of injury trouble

when the player's performance is not blatantly bad for the draft slot, but still of horrible value at that slot, I give them a half bust

2006:
Whites drafted: 3 players busts: 2 ( 1/2 bargs, 1/2 Reddick, 1 Morrison) bust percentage: 67%
Blacks Drafted: 11players busts: 3 1/2 (Williams, Armstrong, O'Bryant, 1/2 Sene) percentage: 32%

2005:
Whites Drafted: 3 players busts: 2.5 (1/2 bogut, Vasquez, Korolev) bust percentage: 83%
Blacks Drafted: 11 busts: 3 (1/2 Webster, 1/2 Frye, Diogu, may) bust percentage: 27%

2004:
Whites drafted: 5 players busts: 4 (Humphries, Araujo, L. Jackson, R. Swift) Bust percentage: 80%
Blacks drafted: 9 players busts: 1.5 (Livingston, 1/2 Telfair) Bust percentage: 17%

2003:
Whites: 5 busts: only 1 ( Milicic) percentage: 20%
Blacks: 9 busts: 2 (Banks, Sweetney) percentage: 22%

2002:
Whites: 3 busts: 1.5 (Tskitishvili, 1/2 Dunleavy) percentage: 50%
Blacks:11 busts: 5.5 (J. Williams, Wagner, 1/2 Gooden, jeffries, Ely, Haislip) percentage: 50%

2001:
Whites: 2 busts: 0.5 (1/2 Radmanovic) percentage: 25%
Blacks: 11 busts: 5 (Brown, Curry, Diop, White, Brown) percentage: 45%

2000:
Whites: 3 busts: 1 (Mihm) Percentage: 33%
blacks: 10 busts: 6 (Swift, 1/2 Miles, Fizer, Johnson, Moiso, 1/2 E. Thomas, C. Alexander) Percentage: 60%

1999:
Whites: 2 busts: 1.5 (Redojevic, 1/2 Szerbiak) percentage: 75%
Blacks: 11 Busts: 2 (Langdon, bender) percentage: 18%

1998:
whites: 4 busts: 2 ( LaFrentz, Doleac) percentage: 50%
Blacks: 9 busts: 2 (Kandi man, Tractor Traylor) Percentage: 22%

1997:
Whites: 2 busts: 1/2 ( Croshere) Percentage: 25%
blacks: 11 Busts: 5 1/2 (Daniels, Battie, Mercer, 1/2 T. Thomas, Foyle, Abdul Wahad) percentage: 50%

Conclusions...

let's add the aggregate from these 10 years:

Whites:
32 Players taken in total
16.5 Busts
Aggregate bust percentage: 52%

Blacks:
94 players taken in total
36 Busts
Aggregate bust percentage: 38%

I believe these figures to be good, unbiased representations of the rate of Busting for Lottery Picks. I am Asian and impartial to which side "wins" or "Loses" . I believe that I've taken a large enough sample size to iron out most statistical anomalies.

These findings....
are rather interesting in my honest opinion. These numbers imply that in the lottery, by drafting a white player, you are taking on a more than 13 percent increase in the chance that the player will be a bust.

I also looked at White players Drafted in the top 5 over the sample period....
Out of 10 White players, taken in the top 5, only 2 have performed at their Draft slot or better (Gasol and Van Horn) This means that only 20 percent of the top 5 White picks have been good draft choices. I didn't crunch the numbers for Black people, but I doubt it's this low.

What causes this large gap in Bust percentage?

Reason number 1
In my honest opinion, one of the main reasons is "character". I'm not racist when I say this, but there are many more black players getting into trouble with the law than their light-skinned counterparts. This is purely empirical and not meant to offend. NBA GMs want to draft high character guys, and it just so happens that a higher percentage of white players are of "high character". These white players are not from the hood; they don't carry extra baggage with them when they step into the NBA. They don't have to look after their "Boiz" in the hood and subsequently put themselves at risk of unlawful behaviour. Because GMs want high character guys, they have tended to reach to far down for these guys

Reason number 2
Many of these white players are really good College players due to their decent size and solid fundamentals. In the NBA, their size comes into question and their lack of Athleticism. ( almost all white lottery picks in the sample period had average to below average athleticism, check for yourselves ) These white players generally have had great collegiate careers with good tourney runs, so GMs like that and draft them higher than they deserve to be. This is because GMs put too much emphasis on drafting a winner who carried a team. They forget that when they come into the league, they're not going to make a difference to the team through a winning history as it is obvious that skill level is far more important.

reason number 3
A lot of these white guys are international. It is a) harder to gage their skill level due to various leagues of various strengths b) tough to see if their game can translate into the NBA c) too tempting for GMs to pass up on a potential marketing opportunity. Hence, GMs may have delusions of Grandeur about these players.

Reason Number 4
ATHLETICISM! YES, THAT DESERVES ALL CAPS. Almost none of these lottery pick white guys have good athleticism. They can get by on the amateur or International level, but the NBA is filled with run and jump athletes who can negate these players' good fundamentals. GMs, for reasons above

Moral of this research:
It is much safer to draft Black people in the lottery than White people. I wish I had more time so I could compare the star rate of lottery picks between Whites and Blacks over the last decade. I really think that
there have been around 2 white lottery stars ever since 1997: Gasol and Van Horn (Kinda)

It's been fun doing this research... I ask everyone who views this to comment, good or bad.
Of course, actually crunch the numbers before ripping me on its legitimacy


superjack
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dude you got lots of time on

dude you got lots of time on your hands

Meditated States
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I second that

Too much time on your hands.

llperez
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interesting read

I think it's pretty clear that white players tend to be less athletic which goes a long way towards how well you do in the NBA. But I'm not sure that a simple "bust, 1/2 bust" formula is gonna be very accurate in analyzing this information. For example, no way should guys like Kwame Brown and Darko Milicic count equally to guys like Courtney Alexander or michael Doleac who were drafted later and just never made a serious impact.

bunka24
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Racism

These are the kind of things that keep racism alive. As long as people keep doing analytical research on racial statistics then racism won't die. It creates division and difference instead of letting everyone be viewed in the same boat. I am not saying you are racist by any means, I am simply stating that these kind of things just keep racism alive.

EuroBall
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Andrea is not a bust

Andrea Bargnani is not a bust. Bosh plays in his position so he had to play out off comfort zones as a center. Now he's getting the ideal of playing center.

billyk
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Whats the bust factor for

Whats the bust factor for Asians????

superjack
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bogut

hes not a bust

hes just injured

johneco
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Interesting post. I think

Interesting post.
I think the posters above who criticize you for having too much time on your hands are numskulls - what are they here for? To read losers' endless unrealistic homer trade proposals? Personally I apreciate the effort to add something meaningful to the conversation.
My criticism is along opposite lines - you're taking on a subject which for many is heavy and emotionally charged, maybe you should have been more thorough, not less. You use terms from statistics, but your analysis is not really statistical at all. You say that you are unbiased, but how is that possible, aren't you human? The main practical flaw in that regard, is that you choose who is a bust and who is not based on your own opinion, not based on some kind of objective metric. For a contrasting (and IMO more correct) approach, check out these two excellent articles from draft express where they try to rate drafting strategies, and teams' drafting histories, and to do so first define a metric to categorize players as bust/success/star (basically using 5th year PER). I think if you were to do something similar you could have a publication-worthy article.
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Eight-Rules-for-Draft-Night-Success-...
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Predicting-NBA-Draft-Success-and-Fai...

Anyway, again, I found your post interesting. If I believed your results (which officially I can't because of the above, but I am not that surprised by them or find them unrealistic) I would also raise the obvious possibility of racism as an explanation (which you seem to avoid). Teams might just be racist. Especially teams that live in predominantly white areas probably prefer to have some white stars, and will consciously or unconciously reach for them bypassing a better black player.

Born2Ball1986
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Racism

Im with bunka24, this is the type of thing that keeps racism alive. If u can really play or have the potential there will be a place for you in the league. Yes there are more blacks in basketball than whites. Just like there is more whites in baseball than blacks. But do you hear black people talking about we dont get a fair shot at getting in2 the major leagues becuase we're black? No. I think its unfair everytime there is a really good or above average white guy there is expectations of him being like a great white hope or something. Thats unfair to that person an it shouldnt be that way. If u can play the game and excel then u deserve and will find a spot, but if you dont then its just not for you so either you should except the fact or bust your butt to get there white or black. I wish the best for Chase Budinger, Tyler Hansborough, and Luke Harnagody.
But if they turn out to be busts then hey thats just what it is. They wont be the first and wont be the last an that goes just the same for black players, if its Harden, Thabeet, or Griffin busts are busts.

DChump
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I'll never know why people

I'll never know why people feel the need to do this kind of thing. Why do you need to investigate the success of different races? And who are you to say who is a bust and who isnt? I really oppose this type of discussion because i feel there is no need for it and its irrelevant. Even just the title, "Lets get racial", is provocative. Lets talk basketball, not race.

johneco
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I agree that the title is

I agree that the title is provocative.
However I would say this is a useful exercise if done right: if NBA GMs do in fact overvalue whites relative to blacks, then:
a) we should be wary of white players' rankings, and
b) we should consider if our teams are racially biased, and urge them to change if they are.

tli232
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Responses to comments

As aforementioned, this was not meant to be racial, but rather another way to analyze the draft. We always look at the Draftees based on height, college, and other factors. Race is just another factor to consider. If I have time, I'll redo this whole thing using average draft position PERs after 4 years and comparing that figure with the players' PERs. I guess that way, none of you can say my research is biased.

Just to Clarify...
It's not racist to point out our differences. I believe that we should CELEBRATE our differences instead of hiding them.

Re: Born to Ball

I'm not saying that Black people cannot bust, just that they are less likely to bust (13 percent less likely) in the lottery. I' pretty sure that after the lottery, in the first round, White college players have a higher success rate than their Black friends.

Re: EuroBall
I didn't say Bargnani is a bust, I have him down as a half bust. This is because in that strong draft, the Raptors could ahve had much better value in drafting Roy, Aldridge, or Rudy Gay. All three of whom are all star caliber players.

Re: BillyK
Dude, there have been 2 Asians drafted in the lottery ever. One is Yao, one is Yi. I don't think we need to calculate that. :p

russo1ma
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dumb

your reason number one: you say your not racist but that comment basically says black people are all from the hood and take care of their "boiz"...you have to be F****** kidding me that you just dropped that in there...anyways, this first reason is riddled with racism buddy

oh, and white stars since 97? how about Dirk?

1/2 a bust? what qualifies a half a bust, im pretty sure its an all or nothing type of thing

this is frustrating because people say that they're not racist, but then they write stuff like this, think before you write

GreenLantern
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This topic is almost

This topic is ALMOST interesting but old, so let me put a fresher challenge in the post's author's theory: It is undisputed that International whites are better than American born whites. Why? Someone should answer THAT with any theory about racial talent disparity in the NBA.

gatorheels
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I think international whites

I think international whites and american whites can't be considered the same in this discussion. American basketball is extremely different than european ball etc... plus obviously American culture is different than foreign countries. The same would go for American African-americans and foreign African americans.

I don't have a problem with the post. tli232- you did some interesting research.

GreenLantern
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I don't have a problem

I don't have a problem with the post either and i respect the author. I'm just saying if you are going to ask a question like this then debate the issue at length. It's not fair to blacks or whites quite frankly to use the "different cultures" cop-out on the white side, but in the post point out fairly or unfairly black urban "culture" as a reason for NBA status. Now I'll say there are two things going on in this thread that should be clarified that are being intentionally or unintentionally mixed: culture or race? nature or nurture?

Briguy
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Wang

Wasn't Wang drafted bye Dallas .... well .. he did play there IIRC ...

I don't have any problems with the post ....It is a difference between one race and another mathematically and every time people cry about the differences it always seems to be someone angry or someone feeling guilty ....That keep racism alive more than mathematics...

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the topic

i like the topic, find it interesting, and wish people weren't so sensitive and worried about being politically correct. racism is not going to die, EVER, so get used to it. and the guys who say the original poster has too much time on his hands need to check themselves....keep up the good work tli32...

auber
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White men can't jump. You

White men can't jump. You didn't need to throw the brothers under the bus with this one. This whole article is one sad truth and a lower blow to any African American. You plead the fifth by being Asian brah give me a break.

The lake show2
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this isnt what keeps racism

this isnt what keeps racism alive who ever said that...its seems liek basically some people say ..just dont talk about it and it will go away type thing..so someone is considered a racist because of a topic about race? give me a break

NYK423
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whites

the numbers are skewed a little because there are much more african americans drafted than whites.

When it comes to character issues, i think that has a lot more to do with social class than what race you are. If you are of a lower class u are more likley to get in with drugs, gangs, and etc. it doesnt matter if u are white, black, asian, or hispanic. The problem that society has to look at is why black people make up most of the lower class.

I would also like to see why are their much more europeans being drafted than white americans. I am a white man and i wonder why this is. To me it has everything to do with aau basketball. we need to teach fundementals more than we do the one on one game. Aau basketball, while i think it is fun and i have playedon aau teams, u dont get enough practice because most of the coaches have other jobs. u play mostly games. we need to find a system where we teach fundementals and basketball iq along with developing them athletically and playing games. we baby these kids too much. there treated like movie stars, even the ones who will only play lower d1 basketball. the system is corrupt and needs to be fixed

sheltwon3
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I believe even white know

I believe even white know that the average black NBA player is more athletic than there white counter-parts. I disagree with some of the people that were labeled busts but I did not have any problems what was said. Too many people get easily offended and want to cry about this political correct bs that people speak but don't think. No one thinks in political correctness for the most point. There will always be biases because of human nature. I do think they will need to come and actually speak out about of unique strengths and weakness or lack there of. I do believe it cause issues when it can be debated that there are some races that if given a equal playing field would be top and that cause issues with pride and egos among people. I like this posts because for the most part it brought up a topic that people think about but are scared to talk about. Also I do not think that he was saying that all black players has hood baggage but it is honest to say that a great deal of NBA players do have that baggage and since Hip Hop is big across the world you have everyone that has money for the most part that take part in that style to some degree. Black people have a stigma put on them that this is always the case but there are a white players that come from poor background as well but honestly out public is bias and that will take some time to change. i do believe over time we can get closer to dealing with the racial issues but as we do that the people issues get worse. All in all the more you try to cover something up the less likely you are to fix it and as an black American, I will say this American tries to cover up to much stuff all the while the same stuff continues to happen.

rtbt
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Absurd Racial Stereotyping

Sheltwon, I tried to stay out of this idiotic discussion until you made that horrible and stupid statement. You wrote, "I believe even white know that the average black NBA player is more athletic than there white counter-parts."

Are you kidding? Which white players are less athletic? Are you talking about Rudy Fernandez, Joe Alexander, David Lee, M. Ginboli, L. Admunson, or the Birdman? All of those guys have great leaping ability, but maybe that's just an optical illusion? I could go on with this argument, but hopefully even you may start to realize how dumb that statement was.

tli232
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More responses

Re: RussoM1

First of all, read what I wrote carefully. I was talking about "White Stars drafted in the top 5". The second part is relevant because the top 5 is supposed to yield stars not so much later in the lottery as is the case with Dirk. I'm just saying that in the Top 5, where it is not unreasonable to expect a star player to Blossom, White players have generally not lived up to expectations.

Also, I didn't say that all Black people are of poor socio-economic backgrounds. I'm just saying that it is undisputed that the likelihood of a Black draftee having "extra baggage" is much higher than that of Caucasians.

Re: Gator Heals, Captain America

You guys bring up really interesting points about separating International Whites and American Whites. I implore one of you guys to do some research on this topic. I really think it'll be worth-while for discussion and analysis.

Re: NYK 423

Original message:

I would also like to see why are their much more europeans being drafted than white americans. I am a white man and i wonder why this is. To me it has everything to do with aau basketball. we need to teach fundementals more than we do the one on one game. Aau basketball, while i think it is fun and i have playedon aau teams, u dont get enough practice because most of the coaches have other jobs. u play mostly games.

I agree with you 100 percent on the fundamentals. I think it's the fact that Americans want their ball players to become well- rounded individuals by not focusing entirely on Basketball. Take Australia for example, they have the Australian Institute of Sport (AIS), where they scout up and coming athletes at a young age, usually early teens and bring them to a world- class facility to train relentlessly with the best coaches their country has to offer. Another facet of this discussion is that many of us tend to forget the fact that many top European Players don't even finish highschool before beginning their professional careers. On top of that, there are Junior Club teams these kids play on before they reach the full-pro stage. Because these kids begin professional training at a much earlier stage than their American counterparts, regardless of colour, their fundamentals are much better, while their athleticism may be average. White American players have similar Athleticism to the Europeans, but their fundamentals are of a lower level. Therefore; advantage European whites. This is why there are more drafted.

I seriously think that the "hypothetical trades with no basis" forum threads need to stop. We are not GMs, even if we think the trades are good and fair, they won't happen. Go join a fantasy league and work it out there.

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Griffin

So what can we conclude now about Blake Griffin's prospects? :) Do short alligator arms typically coincide with good or bad socio-economic background?

Just kidding, very interesting post. I think as basketball fans we are generally more culturally tolerant since we have people of all colors both in the NBA and on the international scale.

Also, 2003 was a good year for whitey-

sheltwon3
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This is what I ask as a

This is what I ask as a debate how much knowledge do you need to be an asset to this country because most of the dumbest people are the most successfull over here. You have entertainer with no sense that make more than the super smart people. I am just acknowledging a fact and you have many people that leave high school or get a GED and join the military where they help run the top military in the world. I think it is all false about the education portion in a sports players life when even college grads can get screwed over by some of the people that are looking to get a piece of their money. Education does not always mean good sense and or that you know everything.

Stanford hoops
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prob because your e comments

prob because your e comments show that its a very strong chance that you would say that...even though what shelton said was true..not sure how you could consider that dumb when its true just because you dont agree with it

The lake show2
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by the way rudy is hispanic

by the way rudy is hispanic not white and manu is spanard..do you even watch basketball?...and reread shelwtons post..he said THE AVERAGE dummy

uncfan23
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lets go by average

lets go by average ....growing up everyone in here describe the average white player you played with or against and say what type of game he has...then do the same with the average black player you played against so we can figure out if josh comments were racist or true..because it doesnt sound much different then saying euro are more fundamently sound then americans......also did you know that in america alot of coaches teach there players who are white more about fundamentals because they have to make up for not being very athletic....and alot of black players dont practice the fundamental stuff because they are so gifted athletically...and alot of athletic white players dont practice fundamentals because they gte by early in there basical careers off of athletic ability?

uncfan23
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thats true rtbt but the

thats true rtbt but the context of this discussion isnt going that far indepth..pretty much everyone here knows blk kobe white..mike miller......spanish..ginobli...no one is going that far indepth

rtbt
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Do You Guys Understand Logic?

Is this too deep of a concept for you guys?

If someone says the average white player is smarter than the average black player, even you could figure out what a dumb and racist comment that is.

Well guess what geniuses, if someone says the average black player is a better athlete than the average white player, they're using the same exact flawed logic.

The lake show2
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unc its pretty much the same

unc its pretty much the same in europ...just about all european players agree with youre point on each team ive with with. thats just how it is. no one considers them racist..none of my white or black teams consider them racist

rtbt
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UncFan23 - Try to Use Logic

You are confusing numbers with logic. Obviously most of the players in the NBA are black, therefore most of the best athletes in the league are black.That isn't a racist statement.

However, if you make generalizations about groups that is usually racist. For example, if you say white players are smarter than black players, most people would agree that's stupid and racist.

He made a generalization saying the average black player is a better athlete than the average white player, that's why it was racist. It's the same logic used in the first statement about intelligence, only in this one it's physical instead of mental. Why is that OK?

Check out the difference in the following.

More than 90% of the world's elite high jumpers, guys who defy gravity by jumping between 7 ft 7 and 7 ft 9 inches high are WHITE. That's a fact.

But if I said the average white guy is a better athlete / jumper than his black counterpart, that would be racist.

Do you see the difference? It's a matter of using LOGIC as opposed to numbers.

tli232
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Re: the Jumping Comment

Hey. I understand where you're coming from with the White High Jumper Comment, but I must add something to that. By the 9th grade, I was competing in the high-jump on the City Level. I agree that the majority of those kids are White. However, I think that training has a lot to do with it. Personally, living in the North, I've had to go to private gyms to work on my explosiveness and cardio in the Winter, something my middle- upper class parents had to pay for out of their own pocket. Also, I've spent hours and hours at indoor track facilities working on technique. Again, my parents had to pay for it. I'm sure that on average, many of the Black contestants' families could not afford to use the facilities I employed to prepare. What surprised me was that one of the Podium finishers was wearing Nike Shocks basketball shoes while I was wearing my Asics Turbo High Jumping shoes.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that without any training whatsoever or equipment disparity, Black people on average will jump higher than White people.

perhaps Biology has something to do with it...
I begin with an anecdote (well, kinda)
Did you know that the Average Asian has two less bones than the average white person? This is because Asians have 2 bones in their pinky toes while White people have 3.

My point is...
it would be ignorant to say that all races are the same. Genetically, Black people evolved differently from White people, and Asians differently as well. Those are facts. Perhaps this difference is beneficial to the Black people being better athletes without any nurture. Perhaps one of the users on this site is a genetic Anthropologist and can either refute or prove this theory.

QHaynes123
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youre still a racist...

youre still a racist...

rtbt
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Bryant You're Confusing Culture and Race

Bryant,

You wrote, "by the way rudy is hispanic not white and manu is spanard."

Please allow me to point out that the country of origin is only a cultural description, it has nothing to do with race. For example, in Latin American countries there are people who are white and others who are black. They're all spaniards or hispanic, that's their culture.

sheltwon3
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Rbt, it has already been

Rbt, it has already been proven genetically because a dense muscle mass and other things that African American or even Africans for that matter are more athletic on a an average than white people. The things about intelligence is there is not a equal playing field on this and also there is no true test to determine is white people are smarter because the average black person can not afford the private school and everything that would give white people the advantage. This study that I talk about I forget who did it but he was not black. I have never heard of Rudy or Ginobli as being white when they talk about white athletes in the league they may put Dirk in that sentence because he is from Germany but not those two but even with those two most of the black people in the league have equal to more athleticism so if you want to defend this bring stats. I think the argument was already made about the high jumping thing. Also by your assessment if I said the average male is stronger and more athletic than the average female that would be sexist when that is a proven fact and that is not to say that a trained woman would lose to an untrained man in a particular event but the states average because men have more muscle mass. That is genetically factually stuff. The brain has too many mysteries to solve because we can say someone is smarter or dumber. It is crazy when someone brings out the truth that most people do not want to hear they call that person racist. Racist is if I tell you that i don't like you because you are black or white or whatever or I try to tell you that because of your race you are this. It is not racist to display factual information they may offend you because of your own sensitivity. You know what i am done. This dude most be a troll. You can't rationalize with someone this unrational.

llperez
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sheltwon

I agree with what you are saying and I think you are stating it in a totally non-offensive way. I'm white and I grew up playing basketball in Los Angeles where I was often the only white guy on the court. And trust me, I'm not racist when I state that Black people are on average more athletic then white people. I'm not sure why people would even get upset over that fact. It's not like there are'nt some exceptions to the rule, but as a whole white people tend to be less athletic. I don't see anything racist about that.

tli232
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Race, Intelligence, and Basketball

It HAS been scientifically and evolutionarily proven that there is definitely a link between Cranium size and "Intelligence" in Human beings as well as other species. With that in mind, I must share with you guys the work of one of my Professors at the University of Western Ontario in London Ontario. Dr. J. Phillipe Rushton, an award-winning Psych Prof, wrote a paper in the 90s about intelligence and race; "RACE, EVOLUTION,
AND BEHAVIOR:A Life History Perspective. " This paper was on my list of suggested supplementary readings. I, predictably for an Asian according to his book, read it.

Here is a key Chart from page 5.
HERE'S THE CHART

Here's the full paper: Click here for the paper

I think it's pretty self explanatory. Keep in mind that his data is a great big amalgamation of hundreds of studies by researchers of all races so that Bias is kept to a minimum.

As you can see, many stereotypes are reinforced through this study.

relevancy to Basketball?

There are many!!
Black people, according to the hundreds of studies consulted, are more aggressive. This definitely is apparent in the NBA today as the rate of a white player being soft is higher than a black player being soft.

I'll let you guys make other connections by yourselves. I'm not saying I totally believe it, but it's definitely an interesting read.

iverson3
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Oh boy...

Oh boy did you raise some flags with that one (OP's post about brain size, etc.)

Bias might be reduced but not eliminated in a study like that one. Actually, not so much bias as simply scientific error. Reading something in a book does not mean you can now claim "It has been scientifically proven...", that is how ignorance is spread in the world.

And correlation does not at all imply causation.

Here is a pretty good article about race and IQ. I'm not saying it's the bottom line or anything, but Malcolm Gladwell is a much better researcher than most as he actually tries to look behind the numbers rather than just take them at face value (which is what happens when you simply add a bunch of studies together.)

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2007/12/17/071217crbo_books_...

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tli232

At first I was defending this thread. But seriously this is a basketball site so you can get that chart your professor gave you the hell out of here. Now you are completely deviating away from basketball and making this a race argument, and there is no need for that here.

tli232
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My Bad

Sorry, might have been going on a tangent there. ok

Haakaan
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Maybe I noticed because I'm

Maybe I noticed because I'm really light myself, but you should count Kris Humphries in the black section. Not that it matters really.

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tli232

for what its worth, i like what you're doing with this topic. even if it does stray a little from basketball, its still relevant and i welcome it. i find none of your points offensive in the least.

rtbt
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Can You Understand This?

Let me stop using logic because that isn't working. Let's take another shot at this so maybe you can understand my point. Before I start, let me say Rudy Fernandez and M. Ginoblli were just two of the players I was talking about and I'll get back to the other white guys in another message.

If you didn't know their names and you didn't know what country Ginoblli and Fernandez were from, wouldn't a normal, rational person assume they're white? The fact that they're from a country where people speak Spanish has no bearing upon their race. Once again, language and country are cultural descriptions that have nothing to do with race.

Next, this has nothing to do with political correctness, it's all about understanding the difference between describing a FACT vs making a sweeping generalization about an entire group of people. I don't know how to make this any clearer. When you say a group of people are ! and ! versus another group of people, you are coming very close to creating racial stereotypes.

Why is it OK to say a certain group are better athletes, but it's not OK to say the other group is smarter? The answer: both statements are wrong. Now you may personally believe whatever you want, but when you make sweeping generalizations, you are bordering on the verge of racism.

Michael.S.
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MOST OF ZTHESE GUYS AIN"T

MOST OF ZTHESE GUYS AIN"T EVEN WHITE THEIR SPANISH , AND WHAT THE HELL IS HALF OF A BUST

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mikenike

last time I checked, spanish people were white.

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first off i agree that the

first off i agree that the hypothetical trades need to stop as well. that was by far the best thing i read. i am white and have played basketball most of my life. i started high school in public school in philadelphia and was usually the only white guy. as a 5'7 16 year old i could touch the rim while the black guy same age and similar height was dunking. i knew i wasnt as athletic as my friend. 99% of black guys i played with were more athletic than I. but that has nothing to do with them being better players. they were better because they play more. at that same high school i also played baseball and soccer and the majority of those teams were whites. basketball is an inner city sport and many african americans live inner city lives. there arent soccer and baseball fields but there are basketball courts. but i believe that you will start seeing more white guys closer to the top of the athletic chart in the coming years ala joe alexander & chase budinger

rtbt
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Culture And Sports Achievement

trinajoe, you made some excellent points. In America, guys from the inner city are attracted to basketball and football big time. If they were living in Europe, a large percentage would probably become soccer players.

Back to America, how many black guys play volleyball where you find a significant number of white players who can really get off the floor? How many black guys are into cycling, soccer, LaCross, tennis, or golf? Environment and culture plays a huge role in the selection of sports.

I don't remember who keeps saying it, but why can't some guys in this forum understand that Spanish is a language, not a physical attribute?

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Also-

Also, I often look at the high percentage of white beach volleyball players (who are mostly tall and very good jumpers) and think to myself "Too bad blacks are so short and athletically challenged, they are shut out of this great sport."

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