This topic contains 12 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by AvatarAvatar Truett 12 years ago.

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  • #37830
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    darkman97
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     Last year I did a topic on success by association . In that topic I wondered that with the combined success of former UCLA guards in the NBA such as Farmer, Westbrook, Afflao, Collison, and Holiday was it safe to assume that Malcolm Lee would share in the professional achievement. I believe there is something in the coaching they got at UCLA that prepared them.

    As strong as I felt about that is how strong I fell opposite with the Syracuse players. Other than the obvious Carmelo, Syracuse has continued to produce players that has fallen short of what many predicted of them. Being in Minnesota, I’ve seen two in person. Johnny Flynn and so far Wesley  Johnson. both supposedly lottery talent but haven’t  lived up to it. Add Hakim Warrick and Donte Greene to  this list. 

    I know this type of situation is player by player, but does this worry you any about the future production that we could see from Fab Melo and/or Dion Waiters?

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  • #653124
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    rickybobby
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     I think any college team that plays primarly zone defense is putting their players at a huge disadvantage on the defensive side of the ball in the NBA because its hardly played in the league. They might be good at help defense but not so much one on one. But guys like Warrick and Greene wasnt ready for the NBA and where drafted on pure potential that never showed up. John Flynn and Wesley Johnson are skilled and should produce later.

    Johnson just hasnt got used to the nba game yet, he was use to being the man a Cuse and now that he isnt he’s having a hard time adjusting and finding his nitch as a player so what like Turner on the Sixer before they turned him loose. Flynn has alot of talent but no ones giving him much of an oppurtunity. He was playing well as a rookie but that back injury really hurt  his production his second year. Givin the proper chance he should produce.  

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  • #653129
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    cuseflynn10
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    I’d have to disagree. I don’t think playing at Syracuse is the reason why any player has achieved success or failure.

    Warrick is 6’9 219. That’s definitely an improvement from when he entered the league, but I don’t think anyone was expecting him to be a superstar. He’s a solid off the bench option.

    Greene suffered because he left to early. He wasn’t developed enough to compete in the NBA. He got stuck playing behind Rudy Gay when he entered the league. While he was getting limited minutes off the bench, he could have been improving his game in college.

    Flynn had a nice rookie campaign on a bad T’Wolves team. 14 points and 4 assists is good, and I bet it would have been closer to 5 or 6 assists if he had more threats to dish to. He got unlucky when he had a hip injury, and was never given a chance to prove himself again on the T’Wolves. Then the next season he’s on a roster with Lowry, Dragic, and Lin. Now he’s with the Blazers, and has Felton and Smith to compete with for minutes.

    Johnson is in a sticky situation as well. He’s forced to play shooting guard most of the time, and the T’Wolves need a shooter. Johnson can finish at the basket well, but needs to improve his dribbling in order to get to the basket, as well as his shooting to make him more of a threat. He’s still young, but he’ll need to put in a lot of work to improve.

     

    As for Melo, I think he’s a project. He started playing in 9th grade, so naturally he won’t have great low post moves. However, he does have improved stamina and speed, and is surprisingly athletic for a 7’0 250 center. If he landed in Miami, I think that would be a dream fit. He could catch the lob, and be a force on defense, and not expected to input much offensively as the 4th or 5th option.

    And Dion has an NBA body. I don’t know why people say 6’4 215 isn’t NBA ready. He’s got the best spin move I’ve seen in a long time. He can flat out score. I think he’ll be a starter, but could be a potential all star caliber player if he can improve his decision making. If Dion has a teammate trailing on the fast break that could easily score, Dion will opt to take it himself.

     

    That’s a long read, but none of these NBA players are good or bad because of the college they went to. Their good or bad beacuse of  how they took advantage of their situation in the NBA. Some of their games just don’t translate to the systems they are in.

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  • #653130
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    cuseflynn10
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    You basically said what I was trying to in two paragraphs haha. And Flynn got 25 minutes against OKC the other night and went for 10-5-3. He’s got it in him to produce. I think once he hits free agency, he’ll go to a team that will need a PG, and he could thrive. As for Johnson, I think you nailed it. The adjustment as the go to guy, to the third or fourth option has been tough for him.

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  • #653151
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    rickybobby
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     Hopefully Portland gives him an chance for the rest of the year. I love Felton but him in portland just didnt fit and Nolan Smith isnt as talented as Flynn. Im interested to see will be coaching Portland next year.

    Back to Cuse Waiters he dosent impress me alot i dont know why he just doesnt. But at 6’4 215 he has solid SG size, i wish he would have came back and worked on his conditioning and hopefully moved to the starting lineup an showed what he really could do. All in all to me he looks like a player that plays better off the bench than as a starter ala Terry,Odom,Lou Williams, Moe Williams etc

    Fab Melo is interesting i love his size and defensive ability but can he guard his man one on one in the NBA and stay out of foul trouble. Also he doesnt rebound particuarlly well given his size. He improved drastically from his freshman year so i know he will work hard. If he does he will become a Tyson Chandler like player who brings size and intensity, shot blocking and hopefully as good of rebounding ability

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  • #653229
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    Truett
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    but the fact is that winning programs produce more nba talent and thus busts than non winning ones. i dont think it is fair to blame a college program for having two players drafted by minnesota either…

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  • #653257
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    PulseGlazer
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    I actually do blame Cuse’s system for a lot of it.  In the past 30 years only like 2 guys have panned out from there – Melo and DC (who panned out as an All Star, but should have been an All-Timer).  Even other guys who were top picks like Billy Owens and Wes Johnson didn’t become anything special.  There are a lot of potential reasons, but that Syracuse runs a system so different than those used in the pros is a major one.

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  • #653264
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    orangeshadow83
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    I was thinking about this the other day and even though Im a Cuse fan not many cuse players have panned out in the NBA lately. I still have hope for flynn and johnson…i think Flynn just needs another chance and he will suprise people…Johnson I hope gets in a better situation but I can also see gim being a complete bust. Warrick has produced ok but it wasn’t like he was a top 10 pick or anything. Donte came out way too early and was put in a tough situation.

    As for Fab and Waiters, I love Waiters as an NBA prospect. I think he will be one of the steals of the draft he might be a little short for an NBA SG but he makes up for it in athletiscism and strength. I wouldn’t be suprised at all to seem in be an all star one day. With Melo you know you are going to get a big boy that can play defense. Hes projected to go late first or early second round so fi he produces valuable minutes off the bench I would consider him sucessful.

    Overall Cuse players have underacheived since Carmelo but I don’t think its the program its the players, their injuries, and the situations they are put in.

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  • #653321
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    Moon River
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    There have some overachievers as well.  I think Etan Thomas has had a long rather steady carreer.  He was injury prone but when healthy was a solid low post defensive presence.  Also, Jason Hart stuck around for a few years as a back up PG (mostly Spurs and Jazz) and was solid as compared to what he was projected coming out fo the Cuse.

    And don’t forget Derrick Coleman….well he may have underachieved, but I think that was just Derrick versus any type of Syra-curse.

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  • #653381
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    Bmore_DC
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    Ok first off lemme start by addressing the whole "only two players have ever really panned out from Cuse, Melo and DC"….dude have you ever heard of Dave Bing??? do your research bro…

    Rony Seikley was also a pretty damn good player himself…as for Wes Johnson, hes a small forward stuck on a team full of small forwards! its not like hes terrible…and for Johnny Flynn, maybe he hasnt produced a lot, but he also hasnt gotten many opportunities besides the Rambis days in Sota…theres a reason why he keeps getting traded tho, and its because teams see his potential and want him…

    and Hakim Warrick wasnt ready??? He was a senior…what do you want him to do, wait another year? hes been pretty solid in the NBA.

    Sherman Douglas was a pretty damn solid PG too finishing with 4500 assists…

    whats up with all this Cuse hate lately man??? 

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  • #653429
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    Truett
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     Yea, he went to Syracuse… I know duke counts a lot of hall of famers amongst their alums… oh wait they have none… This thread is dumb.. darkman started it off by proving that his theory was wrong (how many minutes is malcom lee playing?) then asking if we should apply it again..Then pulse glazer jumps in because he is still pissed that derrick coleman didn’t want to play hard and Wes johnson is on the Wolves… WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH SYRACUSE BASKETBALL? Listen I am a cuse fan and if you asked me if wes johnson deserved to go number 4 overall I would have told you no. For the most part, syracuse eschews from the whole one and done(though i think that is going to change in the future) and as a result does not get the best prospects going out of high school… usually the people they sent to the draft lottery are seniors who have produced well throughout their careers but do not really fit the nba because they are too small or not quick enough or un skilled…so, I am going to ask you the same question that everyone has asked and you should ask yourself… why you hatin?

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  • #653516
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    darkman97
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     My feelings are so hurt knowing that truett called my topic dumb. But I am very pleased that he/she took time out their day to read my dumb topic and supply an opinion. I was never on a debate team, but I know that not everyone will agree with your beliefs, but insults are so bush league.

    But you asked follow up questions so will respect you with my answers. How many minutes does Lee play? Answer.. A little over seven a game. When you start off the year behind two veteran  pgs in ridniour and berrera, and a future star and fan favorite in rubio, you sometimes get the short end of the stick. Now that he has been called up, they are intergrating him in slowly. So far he is playing his seventh game tonight. 

     

    How about hall of famer David Bing? Yeah great player, but pretty sure Jim  Boeheim wasn’t coaching him back then. Notice how I used more recent players? Not like I used Lew Alcindor and Bill Walton for UCLA. I know there are many players that played for cuse in the past but was trying to narrow it down to those that played since man landed on the moon. 

    But in all honestly I understand if you don’t  like the thread due to you being a fan of the team. But I was gonna add that maybe Jim B is actually coaching up his players that makes them look more ready than they maybe be, but then they get exposed in the pros. If this could be the case then he is actually getting the best out of his players which makes him a great coach.

     

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  • #653599
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    Truett
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    Success b/c of coaching? Association is an imprecise word that implies there may be something more than coaching to it. Is it the association with the coach(what it sounds like you are saying now)? or is it the association with the school (what I thought you were saying), or with the other players on the team (could be, but makes your point while also defeating it [best players cuse has put in the NBA in a long time Played on Carmelo’s championship team]). If it is association with the coach then I would refer to my earlier point regarding successful coaches putting more talent into the draft pool, thus resulting in more "busts" from their program. Also people said the same thing about Duke in the 90’s when then were amazingly successful but could not produce all star’s for the NBA. If your team is steadily in the sweet sixteen (Duke, UNC territory) you might be putting 1-2 players a year into the draft each year. say thats ends up being 15 players over ten years… the odds are that you are going to have more busts than not and maybe 1-2 elite players. I would assume the rate of busts to eliete players would get even worse if you do not win championships during that time.

    Side note which kinda makes stupidly scary sense… the people who scout highschool players are pretty good at what they are doing. For the most part if you look at the top ten players from each high school draft you will see a list of ten lottery picks.. if you look at the remaining players ranked 10-40 leaving hs, you will see a smattering of 1st and 2nd round draft picks. Until recently, syracuse did not get looked at by players ranked towards the top of their class, unless they were from western N.Y. (pretty sure donte green only went to cuse because of carmelo). So the previous success the Jim B had at ‘cuse was the result of talent that was more of a long shot to make it in the pros.

    If what you really wanted to say was, "I dont think that the syracuse players entering this year’s draft will see the same level of success as they did in college" I might be inclined to agree with you. Kris Joeseph looks like he is going to be a bench role player at best, waiters a bench scorer, and Melo might have the highest ceiling at defensive center, but there seems to be something off about him… their best graduating player in the tournament was Scoop and he is going to be luckly to get an invite to camps…But once again, I dont think that has much bearing on an ultimate evaluation of the program or where it is heading… 

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