Men Lie, Women Lie, Numbers Don't.
but being clutch isnt all about numbers. its also about winning. and lebron doesnt do it enough
numbers can be misleading though...
men lie, women lie, but numbers dont..its over for that ballin...broooklyyynnnnn
I think people say he isn't "clutch" because he doesn't hit enough gamewinners. Which is a fair point, but that isn't really what "clutch" means is it?
For example, Wade hits gamewinners after gamewinners, Wade is considered one of the most "clutch" players in the NBA but according to the stats, Carl Landry and Lou Williams are more "clutch" then him.
LeBron's such a physical marval it's unreal he can go full throttle for the entire game and still be ready to do it again the next game, combine that with his skills it makes him one heck of a talent, almost unguardable. I'm no homer but he's just that good.
James is clearly the most clutch (15pts clear), but i would pick LeBron to play 47 minutes and then have Kobe playing in the final minute.
also VC is ranked #7, I don't think too many people would consider him clutch
annoy me...where do you get lebron being clutch from a page of numbers
granted his are the best...but how does that show you what he can do with 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter?
like others above said...numbers are misleading and lebron simply chokes in the playoffs
how do you have the best regular season record for 2 years and lose? yeah he just doesn't win
yeah he's a super star and he's an amazing player...but i wouldn't title him clutch at all
he's never really even hit a buzzer beater that meant something
LeBron has only hit two buzzer beaters in his entire career...
1. Versus Golden State in 2009 regular season... He was defended on the perimeter by Ronny Turiaf.
2. Versus Orlando in the 2009 NBA Playoffs when Turk defended him terribly.
The numbers aren't telling the entire story in this situation. I've seen LeBron miss key free-throws consistently during the late stretch of games... I've seen him take bad three-point attempts (like the one vs Boston this past season when they were only down two) and pass up key shots to close out a game.
LeBron is a very good player in the 4th quarter, but I wouldn't ever refer to him as being clutch. I laughed when Cleveland named him "the Closer" last season.
LeBron is the most physically dominant player there is, but he hasn't handled adversity well. He is like Mike Tyson in his prime. You wonder how he could ever lose, but when someone takes his best shot and doesn't go down he gets frustrated. He doesn't like when they hit back. He doesn't like the physical play associated with the playoffs. All of a sudden, his elbow hurts. He stops attacking the basket. His teammates aren't good enough. It is one thing when he is &$#%#&@! on Luol Deng and James Johnson and he scores at will down the stretch of games, it is another when Boston puts a few hard fouls on him. It is another when Dwight Howard knocked him to the floor. When he says it is nice that he won't have to score 30 every night or shoot a high percentage every night, this is what he means. The reason he hasn't developed the post game that would better guarantee him multiple titles than playing with Wade and Bosh is that he doesn't like getting held, bumped, and hit.
Look at those numbers again. He can get to the line (26.1 FTA per 48) and can obviously score efficiently from inside the arc 48 FG percent overall, so why are 36 percent of his shots coming from behind the arc when that is the only spot on the floor where he is his pedestrian in his performance? He is 33 percent from three for the year and his career as well as 34 percent in close and late. It doesn't take a genius to know that him taking a 3 is almost assuredly a good outcome for the defense whether it goes in or not. The alternative his him probably getting 2 points, possibly as many as 3, and with one more foul on someone the defense wants on the floor.
"...he doesn't like getting held, bumped, and hit."
I've never understood that. He's the most physically gifted player I've ever seen. I remember all of the complaining during the Washington series a few years back... The look on his face when he gets fouled hard, etc is hilarious. He seriously doesn't like getting hit back in the mouth.
I was highly critical of the game vs Boston during the regular season when he took the three pointer while Cleveland was down two. A lot of people tried to say, "he was going for the throat" lol... I said he was tired of getting fouled hard, going to the free-throw line and missing. He missed like ten free-throws that game. He settled for the three because it was the easy way out. IF he missed, people would say it was a difficult shot and that he went for the win. That to him, was a better outcome than getting fouled and going to line for two clutch free-throws.
I think he is a very clutch player. People can say that he isn't a great closer, but the stats just don't bear that out. He doesn't just score effectively, but he rebounds and hands out assists in the final moments. No, he doesn't have Kobe's mentality, but that isn't always a bad thing. Kobe is a worse shooter in the final moments than he is otherwise, while LeBron is about even in the big moments: worse overall, but better from beyond the arc. Now, I agree with Bothteamsplayedhard that he needs to handle adversity and physicality better. He needed to play better against Boston. That said, Kobe also struggled against Boston, shooting worse than LeBron did against Boston, and missing 18 shots and 3 free throws in game 7. I believe Kobe Bryant is the most clutch player in the NBA, but I am trying to say that there is a bit of a double standard.
where do you get lebron being clutch from a page of numbers
granted his are the best...but how does that show you what he can do with 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter?
For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points
So you didn't read the page. It clearly says what the stats mean ARC
being clutch is not only hitting the last shot dumbasses smh and when does being clutch only have to win with just shooting jumpshots to beat the buzzer? i have seen this man win games by taking it strong to the rim and finishing like he did a couple times against the wizards IN THE PLAYOFFS a couple yrs back. its about who can carry their team on there back in the fourth and win the game. remember what he did against the pistons with the 29 points in the final quarter. @indianabasketball doesnt know basketball or doesnt watch james. 2 game winners? in 7 years? you sound stupid. i have seen plenty hell i watching nba tv and they were showing highlights of his rookie year and he hit a couple that year.
means that u have that killer instinct
mj had it
kobe wade paul pierce have it
So what does it say that LeBron ranking number one in clutch scoring, number one in +/-
Top 10 in clutch rebounding and Top 10 in clutch assists?
ppl choose any reason to go against FACTS. yo statement doesnt even make sense
when crunch time at the end of game comes, i anticipate lebron potentially missing jumpers. I anticipate him missing ft's. I anticipate him giving up the rock to a teammate. I have never felt that way about Guys like Mike, kobe, bird, reggie miller and others who are considered clutch. Maybe the stats show that this opinion of him is not entirely legit. I guess we will have to continue to wait and see. He can always change the perception people have of him over time. But now he will have an even harder time doing it if wade ends up having the ball at the end of games.
Seriously...Can someone name me some moments where LBJ made terrible choices late in games?
Can we stop acting like Kobe walked into the NBA all clutch and &$#%#&@! too?
People can make numbers do crazy things. I don't see what the point is in extrapolating the data into a per 48 minute basis. I think that makes the numbers a little more misleading.
I can't believe the Cavs had 45 games last year where they weren't up by more than 5 points in the 4th quarter or OT.
Also, the subtitle states: "For these stats "Clutch" is defined as: 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points."
So lets say two teams are in a game and this situation occurs. So if one of the teams goes up by more than 5 points, does that mean the situation is no longer clutch until the game is back to a five point or less difference? This means their data is only based on the time in which the game was just a five point game or less. At any point the spread was greater than five those stats wouldn't be represented in their table.
Or is the data simply just an interpretation of the games that find themselves within five points with less than five minutes left, no matter to the lead changes during the five minute mark until the final horn? This means that a team could go on a 25-0 run after being up by just five with five minutes left and all of these stats count towards being clutch when clearly at a certain point this situation would no longer be considered clutch.
Someone help me out here.
Also, does this include the playoffs? I have a feeling it does not. Dirk and LeBron are way too high in the +/-.
LeBron is a great playoff performer.. Other then that Game 5 vs Boston.
Clutch is all about what you do at that freethrow line.
I'm not a statistic fanatic, so I don't know how many buckets he's made in the last five minutes of games, but... I know for a ***fact*** that he's only made two walk off game winners in his entire career. The shot vs Golden State during the 2008-2009 season was his first. The shot vs Orlando in the 2009 playoffs was his second.
I know for a ***fact*** that he's only made two walk off game winners in his entire career. The shot vs Golden State during the 2008-2009 season was his first. The shot vs Orlando in the 2009 playoffs was his second.
Speaking of Game Winners
haters still trying to deny lebron. figures
"Obviously though this definition means a shot may not actually be a game winner -- it may only tie a game (if down two points) or it may allow enough time for the opponents to get a game winning shot of their own. Still it seems a reasonable compromise."
Ok, the thing is besides from Nowitzki, all the other players have a solid number 2 who can perform during the clutch, Mo williams and Jamison didn't touch the ball in the 4th quarter for the cavs, but Amare was in pheoniz, Pau was in LA, Crawford in ATL, etc. If you watch a cavs game Lebron does everything in the crunch time, but on other teams, there are other players , thats why his numbers are so far out there.
What about before Kobe had Pau and the rest of his supporting cast? Kobe was considered clutch before Pau came to the Lakers. He had to play with guys like Smush Parker, Brian Cook, and Chris Mihm. And all the players I just named were starting too. So even before Kobe had the supporting cast he had now, he was considered clutch so you can't say his supporting cast helps him.
kobe hit 6 game winners last year(bos, mia, sac, mil, mem, tor). He also hit kinda a 7th one against the mavs where it gave the lakers the lead and there were no more points scored for either team, but there was like 29 seconds left.
ok, the link was from this year, i'm going off the stats on that page. 09-10 Lebron was so far out because he didnt' have anyone else, Kobe, 09-10 had Pau, who got a lot of touches in the 4th quarter, other years i don't know but I guess I didn't make it clear.
"2. Versus Orlando in the 2009 NBA Playoffs when Turk defended him terribly."
He was a good foot behind the 3 point line at least and was fading back when he shot it, with a hand in his face. Give credit where credit is due, to say that shot was anything but spectacular is just silly.
Sorry, but I think he is clutch. I mean he takes over in the 4th quarter, makes plays, hits shots and wins games, 120+ in the last two seasons. He is not a Kobe or MJ but I wouldn't mind having him on my team when the game is close in the 4th quarter. He of course still doesn't have the range Kobe does but give him time. Just because he has the mentality that there is the option to pass the ball when your doubleteamed or in a horrible position to shoot isn't a bad mentality. I don't think that he lacks killer instinct or anything. I think he is still a young player who will improve alot. He improved his shot every year and people still whine that he doesn't have range blabla. Kobe and MJ didn't have more range when they were his age.
Just look at Game 7 vs the Celtics.
Kobe got frustrated and took a lot of bad shots. He went 6-24. Can you call that clutch? Can you call that killer instict? Your franchise player goes 6-24 in the game which decides who wins the championship and people still say has "killer instict". The fact that the Lakers won that game was that Kobe had a lot of good players behind him.
Gasol - people call him the 11th best player in the league and the best on the PF postion (that's not what I think)
Bynum - he would score 17-11-2 in any other team, maybe even more
Odom - plays for the national team
Fisher - perfect addition
Artest - scored 20ppg for a playoff team and is one of the best defenders
Of course he hit some amazing gamewinners, especially the one against the Rapotors where two guys were over him and he hit the 20 foot fade away in the corner. But sometimes it's smarter to pass the ball and although Kobe got a lot more unselfish, I think there is still some room for improvement in that categorie for him. And Kobe also missed potentially game winners, before he hit that jumper against the Bucks in the 2nd OT he had two similiar shots he missed. He went 1-3 and people still credit for that shot.
Sorry, I'm not a hater, I just try to analyse the situation in a rational way from a neutral standpoint.
Who are the two guys I want to have the ball in the last 2 min of the game:
Kobe - He is the best at creating a shot of the dribble, can pull up from anywhere and is athletic and strong enough to attack the basket
Dirk - He has an effective fade-away from the high post which is unblockable because he is so long, he is not afrad to pump fake and put the ball on the floor and drive to a sweeter spot (nice handle and basically unblockable and hard to contest because he is so tall)
Would I mind if Lebron had it? Not at all.
chrischi, thats a very solid post and i agree with everything except one thing. Saying kobe having a bad game 7 is an example of not having killer instinct. To me, killer instinct is not about whether or not the shots go in, its the mind set that you are gonna take them and you dont let the misses bother you.
Not only the misses in game 7, I could care less about his field goal %. He hit FT after FT that were clutch as hell, and made some pretty dam good passes to other guys in the fourth also, not always about if his shots go in, but is he making an impact while still having a poor shooting night? Until LeBron wins anything in this league, it's a stupid argument IMO. Kobe is Mr. Clutch, and Knicksboy, he didn't come into the league as the clutch king, he grew himself into that role, stop being a hater, it's wayyyy too obvious.
"He was a good foot behind the 3 point line at least and was fading back when he shot it, with a hand in his face. Give credit where credit is due, to say that shot was anything but spectacular is just silly."
I didn't say it wasn't an amazing shot... I said Turk didn't do a great job defensively. He should've been stuck to LeBron like glue, but he hesitated. Go watch the play on youtube. Turk put his hand up too late.
If you go by this link:
It gives you a decent idea of who takes shots in the clutch, and their actual percentage, but it is not at all a definition of clutch. I mean, when it shows Chauncey Billups going 6-37 in the last 24 seconds of a game, it would pretty much take all the lustre away from his title of "Mr. Big Shot." But, being clutch is defined by many things, and as much as I think LeBron has gotten a bad rap for his "lack of a killer instinct", he has yet to really show himself to be a very clutch performer overall. I am a huge fan of LeBron, I think he is the most physically gifted athlete I have ever seen, but their are certain things that kind of hold him back from being the straight up best player in basketball, and one of them seems to be his lack of will to ALWAYS go and attack. I think llperez had a great point in that killer instinct is having the will to take shots when you are needed to as much as making them in clutch situations. For as poorly as Kobe may have shot in Game 7 of the Finals, if he would have taken any fewer shots it would have gone down as even more of a "choke job" (in quotations, as after all, his team won the game). Kobe has always shown his willingness to take tough shots, and this willingness to do things further highlights his failures, but man, I think you remember his made ones quite a bit more. He is the master of the walk-off last second shot, bar none.
The reason that the numbers do indeed lie, at least in the case of the second statistic, is that you do not really know the success or failure Cleveland had in these games. Were they really game winning shots? If so, than where are the shots he made or missed in losses? His hitting the most is just that, he hit the most at a percentage that was fairly above average for that given situation. Kobe had a bad percentage in that situation, but I think his hitting 6 walk-off game winners this season shows just how clutch he is, as opposed to a few games where he maybe did not hit shots at the end. To me, you can not really argue against Kobe being clutch, even with his poor shooting in game 7, because, he is winning. If LeBron were winning and missed potential game winners in the 3 games his team lost in a 7 game series, people of course would talk about that, but it would be harder to rip on him. It has gotten to a point in basketball, and this is due to the greatest players who have played the game, that championships are a must to defend your status amongst the NBA's elite. Shaq was seen for a long time as someone who could not get the job done, before he did just that. Would Tim Duncan be seen as the greatest PF of all time if he wasn't only missing a ring on his thumb on one hand? So, the reason for the hate people have on LeBron James should be seen as a motivation, while it more often now seems like antagonizing. He was MVP and played on the team with the best record the past two years, and he still did not go where people expected him too. Lost to the Lakers, LeBron might have gotten a little more credit than he does, but he did not make it to the Finals. This is only exacerbated by the fact that he has in fact been to the Finals before, on a team that was much worse. The conference was a totally different landscape, but I do not think people cared, they just saw it as a failure that he could not get back now that he had some more fire power.
LeBron has had clutch moments, I have seen him hit a walk-off game winner in Portland, he hit that amazing shot in Orlando. Also, I think his Game 5 in Detroit during 2007 trumps his horrible Game 5 this past year, though I think the other one will haunt him forever if he does not win a ring soon. He has hit game winners, he has passed some off that rarely have been as successful as whether he had kept it and tried to do it on his own, like Kobe tends to do. But he has yet to establish himself as clutch because he has yet to win. If Michael Jordan had not won titles, he would not be clutch. Easy as that. He had that shot against Cleveland (and the shot in college), but for a long time I think Michael was seen as someone who maybe passed up last shots (John Paxson and Steve Kerr just were better options than Donyell Marshall and Damon Jones). But, Michael Jordan is known as clutch because he was a flat out winner, he was on the right side of the score board and the stat sheet. I am not saying LeBron is ever going to be as clutch as Michael Jordan, and I am not saying that Michael Jordan is not one of the most clutch players in basketball history, but I am giving an example of what people tend to define clutch as. Clutch tends to not be the guy who hits the shot before the guy on the other team makes the game winner. If you play big in a big game and blow the other team out, how would that not be clutch? It is not just a last second shot thing, though that tends to what defines it, but it is a mindset of play. LeBron has done it, but not enough. He misses too many free throws in close games, he settles on his jump shot too much. He by all means should develop a post game, even it means he will get murdered more than he already does. If LeBron James does some of these things, and with the help of his teammates wins a championship, than people will really have very little to argue about in general, other than his not being as good as Michael or Kobe.
Generally kobe had a very solid game 7 except for his shooting and going 11-15 from the line. He attacked the glass and played tough D as always, so you can't really blame him at all. But I think that the Celtics played great D on him and there were a few situations where he should have passed the ball instead of shooting it.
I don't like the "killer instinct" term at all. We don't know if Kobe was frustrated, I think Artest mentioned in an interview that Kobe looked frustrated after he missed so many shots. But that doesn't matter to me anyway because what is it worth if you have "killer instinct" and miss shots which don't bother you, where you could have passed the ball because other players were in a better position to shoot.
What I'm trying to say is: I have the feeling that people seem to think that it is a bad attitude for a player "who wants to be the best" to pass the ball if the game is close. They say he doesn't have the "killer instinct" to take the shot. I personally think that he is simply smart to pass the ball to a guy that is in a better position to shoot and who is probably a better shooter than him. And I think if Kobe adds a little of that mentality to his game he would be an even better player and a few games wouldn't be so close. Lebron has even more room for improvement than Kobe because his shot isn't nearly as good as Kobe's is.
And just for fun here is my favorite buzzer beater from Kobe, no way he could have passed the ball there btw. He gains so much respect from me just for the simple fact that he practices those shots. He really deserved those rings.
Hope it works.