my last post is invalid now? Uhm, okay. Nighty night
I believe the above situations have more to do with Phil Jackson than Kobe Bryant. Kobe did not create the triangle offense. Also, Kobe never dealt with Rodman.
llperez, i don't know who you're talking to asking for people who second my facts. I've seen a couple of people already say that they'd take Duncan over Kobe and gave their analysis.. You're the only one that has said Kobe and yet you still don't have an analysis. You're in defense mode right now, try to get into attack mode and have a valid argument without using stats as I did. because if we look at stats, Oscar Robertson is the greatest player.
kobe did deal with rodamn. They were teammates. ALthough im not sure what rodman has to do with any of this.
toungue, out this whole thread is my analysis. ANd read through it again, i didnt call you out for picking duncan like others have done. I called you out for one very particular statement of your "kobe can not lead a basketball team". ANd so far, i have not seen one person on here agree with that.
- Tim Duncan never lead the Spurs from day one because there was another leader on that team: David Robinson. It was only until Robinson decided to retire that Duncan decided to step up lead the team, and even then he was reluctant at first. Want proof?
- Kobe did not beg Derek Fisher to come back to the Lakers. Derek Fisher left the Utah Jazz for the Lakers because his daughter had contracted retinoblastoma, and Los Angeles was one of the few places that had specialists to treat it. Rejoining the Lakers became a logical choice because of his past history with the team, not because Kobe was begging for him to come back.
- Kobe didn't beg Phil Jackson to come back. Jerry Buss did. Phil and Kobe eventually settled their differences, which shows leadership in a sense by admitting one's faults. Ensuing championships after this are proof of a maturation process.
- The reason Kobe never lead the Lakers from the beginning was because he was playing off the bench behind All-Star Eddie Jones. He was on the bench not because he didn't have talent, but because Coach Del Harris preferred an experienced player like Eddie Jones playing. You can't expect a 17 year old kid to lead a team with veterans such as Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones from the bench.
- Kobe couldn't lead the Lakers during the early championship years because an experienced and dominant (basketball wise) Shaq was on the squad. It'd be a bit like expecting John Wall to lead over Dwight Howard (if they were on the same team). He might have the talent to lead a team, but because a dominant force and experienced player is on the roster, he couldn't.
- Both Kobe and Duncan have very different styles of leadership. Duncan has a silent, stoic demeanor compared to Kobe's fiery, tempered style (which can come across as arrogant). Note that Duncan was expected to lead eventually, and mentored by Robinson and was thrust into the leadership role much earlier than Kobe. Kobe wasn't expected to lead because the team assembled that had Shaq was expected to last together for quite a long time. It wasn't until Shaq left that Kobe had to mature into a leadership role.
- From a leadership stance, Kobe (at this stage) is on par or better than Duncan. However, he was extremely immature in his early years, unlike Duncan who took a silent, stoic approach.
- If you look from a basketball standpoint, it's hard to compare them (as they play different positions), but I'd say Kobe is better. Kobe had plenty of trials and tribulations during his career which caused a division between sports fans to either "love him" or "hate him", resulting in a sense of bias. Duncan has always kept a professional work ethic.
- Kobe's influence has transcended sport similiar to Michael Jordan, something that Tim Duncan has not done. This is not a knock against Duncan's tremendous skill, but when one's play and greatness is recognised off the court internationally by people who aren't even fans of basketball, then surely this is a testament to Kobe's talent.
It's more of an argument of who is "1a" and "1b", and depending whether you love Kobe or hate him, is where you'll place him.
Rodman and Artest are very similar. I believe the common factor here is Phil Jackson. I don't think Kobe made both those guys calm down. I also don't believe he wants Pau Gasol to be the number 1 guy in L.A. He's not the reason Pau is so good. Pau actually is playing very similar to the way he played with the Grizzlies. One difference is the team. If you were to put Luis Scola on the Lakers instead of Pau, would he be getting a lot of attention. A lot of the attention Pau gets is based on the team he's on. He was still a great PF with the Grizz.
A leader doesn't b*tch and moan every chance they get. A leader cares more about winning no matter who they play. A leader doesn't try to get everybody fired and traded. A leader plays with what he's got and makes them better. A leader trusts his teammates. And most of all, the leadership quality comes naturally.
Kobe became a decent leader until the 2008-2009 season. It took him 12 years, countless arguments, dozens of temper tantrums, many critical mistakes to finally become a decent leader. Not only that, he's playing with natural leaders like Derek Fisher, Pau Gasol, and most of all Phil Jackson.
I'm not denying Kobe's talent, he is a top 15 NBA player when it's all set and done.
cp33, pau was soft in memphis and he was soft that first year with the lakers. I have no doubt kobe rubbed off on him from a toughness standpoint. Artest has said numerous times how much he respects kobe. Watch after he hit that game winner against the suns, he runs up to kobe and hugs him. He has never been one to listen to coaches who have told him no to shoot. Kobe himself said in an interview that he told artest before he joined the lakers, if you come here you will defer to me on the court and you will win. Artest has done just that and has looked fine doing it. I defenitely think kobe is the primary reason artest now accepts his role.
Read up on the 2008 olympic team with kobe, wade, lebron etc... It was written by numerous people who followed the team that kobe was the leader and that he got guys working out in the morning and earlier then they were used to and that he showed those stars work ehteic they hadnt seen before.
creepindef, thank you for arguing valid points. You are the first pro-Kobe guy on this board that has made any sense. Duncan is still my guy though, and I almost despise him on the court as much as Kobe. This hurts but if we are talking about right now, I would probably pick Kobe probably just because he has more left in his tank and Duncan is on the decline. Duncan is still leading his team to an outstanding season and I wouldn't be shocked if he led the Spurs to the finals, but realistically, the Lakers have a better shot. I stand by my choice to pick Duncan from day one. Duncan has made the Spurs into one of the best franchises this league has seen
-If you watched Robinson and Duncan, you know they both led that team... I'm not going to take Wikipedia as a source of valid information because anybody can edit it..
-Fisher came back to L.A. not because he loved playing with Kobe as llperez stated, it's because of his daughter.
-Kobe basically begged Busse to do something with the Lakers or he would leave, as a diva would do.
-Kobe never lead the Lakers until 2008 so regardless if he would have played his rookie year, he still wouldn't have been a leader.
-Kobe at this point of his career still isn't the leader Duncan is, the fact that he's playing with the greatest coach of all time in Phil Jackson and with Derek Fisher, it seems as if Kobe is a better leader when it's actually Derek Fisher and Jackson.
-The only reason Kobe is more famous worldwide is because it's easier to commercial a shooting guard with great athletic skills that constantly pops into Top 10's on highlights and live in Los Angeles than a 6'11 back to the basket power forward from San Antonio.
kobe has had 3 phases in his career.
early kobe with shaq: he was unable to be a true leader. He wanted to lead, but he butted heads with the best player on the team and he was in his teens/early 20's and the vets would only listen so mucvh. BUt he did lead by example on the court.
Kobe after shaq was a leader. He demended the best from his teammates. But they sucked. Tell me that duncan or anyone would have won with a starting 5 of luke walton, kwame brown, lamar odom and smuch parker and no bench? Hell, kobe deserves a medal for making the playoffs with that team. FUny that duncan is so much more a leader yet in the last 2 playoffs he hasnt won a single game past the first round.
Kobe now is undeniably a leader who trusts his teammates. In the last few years, its not even a discussion of whether kobe is a leader or not.
creepingdef, there are my arguments to your valid points.
Finally someone likes Kobe that can put together a coherent and valid argument without using stats and just saying "Kobe all day" and for that, I thank you. I would much rather debate with you than with llperez
funny that creepingdef is the only pro kobe guy who has made any sense yet he mentioned most of the same things i have been saying. Please tell me what exactly i have said that didnt make sense cp33?
toungue out, you brought up stats and you made the outrageous comments of "kobe cant lead". If anyone has been on some nuthugging silliness its you.
llperez, have I not said he has become a leader? He's just not the "great" leader you make him out to be. Are you saying that it is all Kobe that made Pau good and Artest calm? Maybe they matured just like Kobe did. Again, you act like you are in Artest and Gasols heads. You don't know the truth about why they have changes. Could have been Phil, could have been Kobe. But why must you act like Kobe is a god and whoever he touches, he turns them into legends. Its not the case. It makes more sense to claim that Phil Jackson did those things, because he's been in those situations before and is known as a guy who makes players change for the better.
And what stats did I bring up? Show them to me.
are both leaders they are both great leaders but llead in their own ways. how bout we get back on topic and answer the question for the post
"Kobe all day"
okay cp33, i said i believe kobe had impact on them and you said you believed it was phil. Yet somehow im trying to act lik im in their heads for knowing them for saying what i believe while, let me guess, you are jsut giving your opinion right? WHo said kobe turns everyhting he touches into legends? I gave a rational explantion as to how i think he impacted their careers and you trying to suggest im just blindly saying everything he touches is gold and he has no faults gives me the impression that you are gettgin frustrtated and must resort to childish antics.
llperez, unless you finally put together an analysis without using stats. Then I'm not listening. Yeah I said Kobe isn't a leader, but I gave my facts so to why he isn't. You haven't said anything at all except "Malone, Payton, and Fisher all love playing with Kobe" When we all know it's not the case, they just like winning, if Malone, Payton, and Fisher would have been playing with LeBron, they would praise him as well. They praise him on his talents, not his leadership ability.
Come up with something valid like creepindef and maybe I'll consider listening.
Point is, I'm taking Duncan. Period.
your right for once toungue out, i dont know what stats you brought up. I never read your first couple posts. I was too dumbfounded by the kobe cant lead comment.
and again, have you read anything i worote toungue out? Are you saying the only thing i have brought up is stats? Maybe read through the thread again, i have brought tons of stuff that wasnt just stats.
llperez, please answer this question. Do you know 100% that Kobe has impacted those players and do you think it is not Phil Jackson at all? I am not frustrated as I have not thrown childish antics into this. You have been doing that enough all night by yourself. I believe you are the frustrated one sir.
Yes, I have read some of it. Point is, Duncan and Kobe are great players but it's more difficult to find a big man who isn't a diva and is okay with playing in a small market and still win. So, I'm taking Duncan. And Duncan is more of a leader.
- I can concede that Tim Duncan is a better leader overall than Kobe, as it took time for Kobe to really step in to the role as a leader around '08.
- Also, if you won't accept Wikipedia as a valid citation, then here's an article with direct quotes from David Robinson himself.
To save you time, here's the excerpt:
"He's smarter than he was when he first came in the league, but the biggest area [of improvement] is his leadership," Robinson said. "He's much more vocal. When he came here, he didn't really want to be that guy. He's stepped into that now, and he's an incredible leader. He's still not overly vocal, but he says things at the appropriate time. He's not afraid to speak up and he's not afraid to go into the press conference and say what he needs to say."
If we're talking about leadership then I'll give it to Duncan. If we're going with talking about basketball skill, which Knicksboy1 originally posted about, then I'll go with Kobe.
I'll go with Kobe, and I'm not ashamed to say Kobe's my favourite player, but it's a "love him" or "hate him" sort of thing with him due to issues early on in his career. If he conducted himself like Duncan, then Kobe would be elevated onto an even higher pedestal, and without a disparity of support between basketball fans.
lol, who said phil jackson has had no impact at all? Nobody in the history of sports is 100% impacted by anyone or anything. Its always a combination of things. I never once claimed that kbe was the only reason for anything. Yet you resort to that as i have.
You want an example of childish antics. I said kobe impacts the players around him. You say phil impacts the players around him. I dont turn around and say, "what you think its 100% phil and everything phil does is gold and he single handidly makes everyone around them who they are all by himself?" Thats the comments you are bringing at me trying to put outlandish statements in my mouth and then suggesting im talking crazy.
"im taking duncan and duncan is more of a leader"
Awesome, if you had said that originally it would have saved us all some time. Are you still standing by your coment that started all this by stating "kobe can not lead a basketball team"?
I believe Creepingdef is the smartest Laker fan I have ever known. He sticks by his man, but sees where the opposition is coming from. These two guys are great NBA players and when they retire, the league will be without one of the greatest SG's to play the game and the one of best PF's to play the game.
I won't say Kobe leads a team on his own, but he can lead a team to some extent. With the help of Fisher and Jackson of course, who are two great leaders of their time.
yep just like i have been saying all along on this thread. Both great players and both will go down as great champions. Unlike some people on this thread, i dont need to simply resort to bashing one player like cp33 and toungue out do to prove my point.
I never bashed on Kobe. I just said he isn't much of a leader, which isn't a knock on him. A lot of players win without being leaders.
and the difference between me and you llperez, is I am not a fan of the lakers or the spurs. I also don't really like Phil Jackson just because he is a coach for them. I just based my argument on more plausible grounds then you did. You said Kobe made Pau better and Artest calm. Really? Its far more likely that Phil Jackson is the reason those things happened. Heck, even Andrew Bynum couldve made Pau tougher. Bynum could have also helped Artest calm down. I am not claiming to know that answer. The more plausible idea is that Jackson was more influential person in those changes then Kobe. You claimed the Kobe was the reason behind both of those. That is the difference llperez
If it's a one on one tourney. Give me Kobe. If it's starting a team from scratch, give me Tim Duncan. The reason Tim's teams never faded was because it's hard to find a great big.
you never bashed on kobe? You said he can not lead a team and then brought up his rape on a topic about basketball.
Kobe is one of the greatest players to ever play the game!!! He is not a great leader though...although I gave such a great compliment to Kobe Bryant numerous times, you are still saying I bash him??? That is not the case.
no cp33, the difference is if you said " i think phil is more the reason behind pau getting tougher and ron becoming calm", I didnt respond with , "who are you? DO you think you know them? Are you in their heads or something? What you think phil is 100% responsible for everything? God you phil fans me sick and have no rational arguments for anything."
See how that sounds? Thats how you have been sounding this whole time.
As time has went on, I have forgiven the fact about the allegations. I do not forgive him for calling Bynum a horrible bball player and demanding trades. Great leaders don't do that. Thats why I take Duncan over Kobe. He has been a leader far more longer than Kobe has. That is the sole reason I pick him
Thanks cp33. Kobe's my guy, but I have plenty of respect for what Duncan has done for basketball.
This might be a bold statement, but I think Derek Fisher didn't step into a visible leadership role until he joined the Utah Jazz. During the first 3 peat, the leadership centred around Phil Jackson, Shaq and Kobe (who was trying to find his niche as a leader). The real instances of leadership from Fisher were his comeback game with Utah on the same day his daughter had eye surgery, and when he finally rejoined the Lakers. Fisher basically "grounded" Kobe, and Kobe's said numerous times in interviews that Fisher is often a voice that Kobe turns to. Fisher also went through a maturation process of "glue guy" role player, to unsung leader of a championship team.
I am not a Phil fan for 1. 2, I never said he was the reason behind anything. I said it is more plausible because he is the coach and is known for that. I never claimed to know anything. You claimed that Kobe did those things. That is the difference llperez
What? I never claimed to know anything either. I gave my opinion and said this is how i feel. You gave your opinion and said that is how you feel. Yet somehow, when we are both discussing who had more of an impact on the plaeyrs and we are both saying "i believe" etc..., you called me out for acting like i know these dudes and actiing like im in their head. I can just as easliy turn that around on you which is stupid though since you, just like me, are pointing out your opinions. Thats has been the difference between us debating.
llperez...tongue out and I have detracted from our original bias to say that Kobe is a leader of some sorts. Its just that Duncan has been more of a leader for a longer period of time. We gave you reasons why we pick Duncan. Sure we bashed Kobe but your arguments were filled with bashing as well. Its just a common thing in arguments. You have not detracted from your original stance which is good I guess. Wow, did I just compliment you? Lol. Kobe is a great player. We picked our guy and you picked yours. I think that this arguing back and forth will do nothing but create more arguments down the road. Lets agree to disagree. I'm willing to be satisfied with my own arguments and to walk away from this topic. I gave my viewpoint and believe that there is nothing you can say to change my mind. Therefore, this arguing back and forth is useless. Like I said an hour ago. I am done with this argument and I am going to bed.
im not sure where i bashed on tim duncan, but sure. sounds good. We agree to disagree.
It was fun while it lasted, lol
one more thing i wanted to add, i never even posted my stance on who i think is a better leader. None of my comments were suggesting kobe is a better leader then duncan. I was only arguing with you guys about your knocks on kobe;s leadership and defending that he is in fact a great leader, at least has become one anyways. Truth is im not sure who is gonna be remembered for being a better leader.
Tim Duncan planned on leaving SAS to join Grant Hill, and then emerging Tracy McGrady in Orlando, but The Admiral talked him out of it. Both are great but Longevity has to come into play, where Duncan is looking fairly older these days as the spurs have gone to a faster pace letting Parker, Gino, RJ all get out and run. Duncan can no loger be a prime #1 for an entire game. He now has to do it in small spurts.Kobe has a chance to be the G.O.A.T, and Timmy the best pf of all time. It's like choosing between Hakeem and Mike. Plus seems to me that both players have been winners there entire career. And for whichever previous poster said that Kobe couldn't lead a team, seems to me he just led them to 2 back to 2 back titles. Duncan ever accomplished that? Both great top 3 at their respective positions, but I'll take Kobe 10 times out of 10.
Just to throw it out, does anyone remember Kobe demanding a trade out of LA because HE couldn't get his team going? Everyone loves Kobe now after his success, but I've heard quite a bit and looked at him differently when his team success went downhill. I loved the Kobe who just played his game when he was younger, putting all his talk on the court.
I've never had any negative things to say about Tim Duncan. Through all the changes he's had from his rookie year until now, he's one of the most professional players we've ever had in the game.
your fncking crazy and fncking bias lol but saying that i would take kobe for the rings now isnt the game abt that? kobe may go down as the second greatest sg but TD is the best power foward to step on to the nba court imo
im pretty sure kobe is a fantastic leader and agree wiht llperez that if u dont think so u have no basketball cred with me at all now as for who id take to bulit a team i would take timmy he is an absloute coaches and teammates dream great leader and a model citizen to lead your franchise now im not knocking kobe at all i love his game he is one of the best ever but imo id take big fun over him to build my franchise
"Who was Better? Who was easier to build around? Who would you start a title team with? Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant?"
Kobe was a better talent, but there is a reason the cast around Tim Duncan has been interchangeable with the results basically staying the same. He is easier to play with, and is dominant at a position that is generally more important to be dominant.