Didnt the spurs get past the maverick last year?
Shannon Brown a super talent? Isn't this the same guy who was a THROW IN to an Adam Morrision trade. Kobe has helped Shannon become what he is. Trevor Ariza? Suspect jumper, then Kobe gave him a workout regiment and suddenly he shoots 50% from deep in playoffs. Sounds like a leader to me.
so knicksboy, are you saying tim duncan has never played with a top 100 player? David robinson was still an all-star and could have gotten 22-12 had he not had to share the ball with tim down low. SO that right there ends that argument.
I forgot about Robinson there. We all make mistakes.
Top 100 dude in his prime.
I never called Brown a superstar talent....said he's a part of a superstar cast. Fall back.
Fact, tim duncan has had all-stars around him his entire career. ANyone who acts like duncan has been carrying weak teams doesnt know what they are talking about. I dont care how many are considered top 50 or top 100 players of all time. Pau wasnt close to being considered a top 50 player before he joined kobe.
Gasol isn't a top 50 player now all time. He is top 100 all time. Probably late 90's
If your telling me there was 50 players better then Gasol when he was on Memphis....I seriously have to END this convo.
you are confusin me, youve been saying top 50 all time and i said pau wasnt top 50 all-time. SO we agree. WHere are you getting this top 50 in the league talk at any given moment from? But if it makes you end this convo, then fine, pau wasnt even a top 200 player in the nba the season he joined the lakers.
Pau wasn't a top 200 player are you crazy.
He was still a top tier PF.
its called a joke nyk2010. He said he would end this convo only if i said pau wasnt a top 50 player in the league. If thats what it takes, then pau should have been in the d-league as far as im concnerned.
^^^He was being sarcastic.
I'm still waiting on an intellectual response to the fact that Pops, Doc, and Gentry along with countless SUPERSTARS all claim that Kobe is the the greatest player/leader in the game.
Gasol 06-07: 20.8ppg 9.8rpg 54% fg
Gasol 09-10: 18.3ppg 11.3rpg 54% fg
Gasol wasn't a scrub in memphis he was actually pretty good
Duncan was an all star from day 1. He was always a team first guy. He was always the alpha dog of those teams. He was always consistant.
Kobe was not. Sure, his team sucked in 06. But look at the 2010 Cavs, a bunch of clowns LBJ was carrying to 66 wins. Kobe has only been the best player in the NBA for one season (06), Duncan was the best player for 3 years (03-05).
I could go on and on. Sure Kobe can lead a team. He can also kill a team. Cite the 06 season, or the 08 Finals. He is still one of the most overrated players of alltime.
This guy is regularly compared to Jordan, despite the fact Jordan: scored more, assisted more, rebounded more, shot a higher percentage, won more titles, won more MVPs, and won more Finals MVPs. Not to mention, he was the best player in the league for at least 10 years.
@urban, bringing up how they played from day one doesnt mean much since kobe was drafted at 17 out of highschool and tim was a 4 year college player.
lebrons cavs were much better then the teams kobe had. Other then odom, every other guy on those teams would not and has not been a role player for any team he has played on since. Kwame brown, smuch parker, chris mihm, brian cook, shammond williams, vladmir radmanovic, luke walton, devean george, shasha vujacic. Those were his teammates. How many of those guys would have played on last years cavs team?
If you think kobe has only been the best player for 1 season then many people would disagree. He has been called by the majority of nba coaches, gms, players etc as the best player for the last 6-7 years.
How did kobe kill the 06 team or the o8 team? He carried those teams. Are you gonna say he killed the entire team becasue of a couple poor playoff games? Really? Thats him killing a team? In that case, duncan has killed his teams the last few years too. Kerep in mind, prior to the 2008 season, most people didnt even think the lakers would make the playoffs let alone the finals.
Kobe is compared to jordan becasue he is the closest thing the league has ever seen and they are very comparable in how they play. ANd by the time kobe retires, a couple of those stats you mention kobe will be ahead of jordan.
I'd take Duncan, solely for positional scarcity and complete dominance in his prime. Prime Duncan still changes the game more than prime Kobe. And I still wonder who prime Kobe is? Is the Kobe of now, the past couple of years of incredibly high skill level and professionalism? Was it Kobe dolo, who's sheer dominance was coupled with serious bouts of immaturity? Or was it the most intense, athletic second fiddle ever, with all apologies to Pippen?
As for the supporting cast argument, we've never seen Ginobili or Parker outside of a Spurs uniform, so it would only be right to assume that part of their success has come from Duncan and Pop right? Would Parker or Ginobili be as effective without such a force on the court? Their skillsets aren't dominant, tho Ginobili has "it". Hes a great player... Anyway, the cohesion and consistancy of the team starts with Duncan and Pop, like in Boston with Pierce and Doc, and in LA with Kobe and Phil. They know what theyre doing because of the consistancy at the top. Its just, the Spurs always seem to be in it. And I think Duncan is the #1 reason behind it.
I choose Duncan, because he has done absolutely nothing to make me not want him on my team. Everything he does is possitive. Those kind of superstars are rare. I dont think I've ever seen someone so talented be so humble. Ever... in anything. Except for Jerry Rice... which kinda sums it up doesnt it?
And if I recall correctly, Kobe deliberately chose not to shoot one of those game, because of criticism he was too trigger happy. Those are the moments that a lot of Kobe detractors remember.. They did happen. It doesnt detract from his skill or his accomplishments, they are a part of his basketball past. He grown past that though. Its almost night and day.
I thought most people knew this....majority of GMs? i dont know who you are talking about. Kobe wont be ahead of Jordan in rings, MVPs, Finals MVPs, or Field Goal percentage. He might pass the others because of playing in alot more games. His per game averages will never exceed Jordan's and he isnt Jordan.
"that cavs team"'s best player right now is Daniel Gibson. Daniel effing Gibson. Sure 06 lakers were worse, but not that much worse.
Mka- Yes, game 7 in 2006 kobe quit on his team litterally, by taking like 2 shots in the 2nd half.
And he did kill his team in the 08 finals. he killd them in the huddles and he lost game 6 by 39 points. something Jordan would HAVE NEVER let happen. TD, fyi, undefeated in the finals himself.
the only gasme i ever remember where kobe didnt shoot was against the kings in a regular season game back in like 2003 when "annonymous" teammates called him out for shooting too much through the media.
If you are refferring to the game 7 against the suns, kobe dropped 50 in game 6 and the lakers lost. In game 7, he dropped 24 in the first half and the lakers were down by 15 at halftime. The coach told him he couldnt shoot them to victory and the best chance was to get oethers invloved. He then went into passing mode to start the third and the team went down by 26 in the first 5 minutes of the 3rd quarter. KObe sat the final 8 minutes of the game becasue it was a blowout. In all, he shot 1-3 in the second half in about 13 minutes and he finished the game with like 27.
Defending Kobe in game 7....something i hoped i would never hear.
Kobe straight up quit in the 2nd half. He played 82 games, then 6 playoff games, and suddenly, he was going to get his teammates involved? give me an effin break. He quit like the loser he is. But good for him they got him an AS big man so he could be relevant and bring up the ridiculous Jordan talk again.
td is undefeated in the finals. BUt 7 trips to the finals is better then 4 trips. By your logic, losing in the first round is better then making the finals and losing.
And no, dirk was never better then kobe ever. Lebron has been arguably better, but many have never given him that even though he did earn the mvp awards. Kobe has saved himself for the playoffs.
And what does boobie gibson have to do with anything? Surely you are not suggesting boobie gibson was the best teammate lebron had in cleavland? Antawn jamison, mo williams, zydrunas ilgauskas, delnte west, andersen verajao, anthony parker were all better then boobie gibson last year.
Lol, "kobe quit like the loser he is". Okay, now i know im not able to have an intelligent discussion with you. 5 titals and counting. What a loser.
you know whats funny, almost every pro kobe person on this thread has been reasonable and brought legit arguments while not bashing tim. Many of the anti kobe people have resorted to name calling and demonizing kobe and letting their hater come out. ITs all good though, thinking of you guys just makes the championships that much sweeter.
First, I think Duncan had the ability to anchor an elite defense with his ability to control the paint and defend the pick and roll.. Kobe in his prime was a top notch defender, but Duncan had the ability anchor his team on the defensive end..
Offensively, I think Duncan was more efficent in his prime, was never a ball stopper, and was a very good offensive rebounder (which was underrated).. Kobe was an elite scorer, but he could be a chucker, ball hog and has been known for not trusting his teamates...
Both players are two diffrent type of leaders Duncan was more of a silent lead by example and Kobe was more in the mold of Jordan (fiery and demanding)...
With all that said Tim Duncan was the better player because of what he brought on defense and offense from the efficency point of view....
billyk, i respect your opinion. BUt one question, dont you think longevity should come into play? I mean your comments are very accurate if aimed from about 1998-2005. But in the last 5 years to today, kobe has easily been ahead of duncan imo. Duncan has only made 1 all-nba 1st team in the last 5 seasons and it doesnt look like he will see anymore 1st team votes from here on out. In that same span, kobe has been the best player over the last 5 years and is in the mvp discussion every year and he is still going strong and in the mvp discussion today.
I thought we were talking about best player in their prime, if we are talking about better career Kobe would have a edge because of longevity...
llperez- every argument against Kobe you just try to deny as if none of its true. This guy has been the best player in the NBA 1 season. thats 1. He has always been overrated. Say what you want about gasol, he has been amazing in LA. Kobe isnt a passer or creator, so acting as if hes the direct reason Gasol has been great is just false.
Most peoople have picked Duncan, for a reason. He has the better body of work. He is the best ever at his position, he has 4 rings as his teams best player, he took a relative unknown team to quasi-dynasty, he always did it with defense, he was even clutch to an extent, and always found ways to win.
Kobe, until 2 years ago would not even have been in this argument. And yes, the 2 years count now, but the first major chunk of his career was highlighted with being Shaq's lacky and hogging the ball and whining until he got his way.
Even the 08 Finals were a major dissapointment. He was killing his teammates in every huddle (which did get public, if you forgot) and they end up no showing the 2nd half of game 4, and completely no showing game 6. A no show in an NBA finals game by an entire team that is "lead" by Kobe is unacceptable. When did TD's teams ever no show a game of such importance?
And yes, he won the title in 09. It was great. But everyone knews KG was out and Orlando was playing above their heads. To make matters worse, Stan Van chose to put a clearly unprepared Jameer Nelson into the rotation, screwing up Rafer Alston's surprising run as a legit playoff PG. He also played a completely rattled JJ Redick in crunch time for all of these games. But, sure take your title, thats 1 in my book. 1, because Shaq o neal was UNQUESTIONABLY the leader of the 00-02 teams, that never lost by 39 points in a finals game.
And finally in 2010, you got and beat the Celtics. But no one will remember game 7 for Kobe bryant. It will be Ron Artest. Kobe shot 25% from the field in the biggest game of his career. End of story there. Talk about his 15 boards all you like, that isnt what a great performance by a SG is judged by. I want my SG to score and play defense, im not worried about his rebounding. And the way KG no showed that game on the boards, it wouldnt have mattered.
You are leaving out way too many intangibles. Kobe has none. Kobe is a good scorer, and a good defender. Thats all. He doesnt make anyone else better, he doesnt have any defining moments of his career that you will never forget. He is just simply Kobe. He was a sidekick, then his team was ran into the ground, he spent a year of his prime in the lottery (name one other alltime great that has EVER done that?) followed by another poor season in 06, and then, after a third straight year of not making the 2nd round (seriously, again, name one other great that went 3 straight years without the CSF in their prime?) before the Gasol trade. Then everything changed and the Lakers were "king" again. Then these ridiculous Kobe arguments came up. By I watched all the years, not just two.
wow. So may obviously biased opinions included there urban that it pretty makes it pointless to even bother further responding. But ill bite...
"he has always been overrated".....Really strong argumetn here. I mean, how many acvtual coaches, players gms have siad he is the best? Yeah becasue they dont know what they are tlaking about. Glad we have you here to clear it all up.
"kobe isnt a creator".....Lol, no comment.
"The first major chunk of his career was highlighted by being shaq's lacky and hogging the ball and whining"....If by lacky you mean all nba superstar who took over the last 5 minutes of games. By your defenition, every single player in the league would have been shaqs lacky.
"take your titles, thats one in my book. One."........SO kobe has 1 title in your book. Im sure thats a best seller.
"i want my sg to score and play defense, im not worried about his rebounding.".....KObe scored 24 points. He hit double digits in the 4th quarter with the game on the line. ANd he played great defense. DO you remember how rondo was dominating games and everyone was wondering how to slow him down? Yeah, that never happened in the finals with kobe on him. And if you dont think rebounding is important, i hope you never actually coach or play basketball.
"kobe is a good scorer and good defender. Thats all." He has no defnining moments in his career"....another lol comment
" he spent a year of his prime in the lottery"......the only season of his 15 year career he was in the lottery both he and odom missed a month late in the season that pretty much ended their palyoff hopes. BUt if inuries means hes not good enough to take a team to the playoffs, then thats your opinion.
ll, I feel you on Kobe.
I understand you would pick Kobe and I would pick Duncan. Were not gonna disagree on it probably but I say thanks because I'm writing a article on it for school. I wanted a LA insight on why people liked Kobe on Duncan and I got it.
i originally planned on honestly taking some time to build a well thought out stance on why i would choose kobe. BUt i got caught up in arguing.
It's cool. My report is due after New Year's. If you just wanna throw it on here, you can.
Bottom Line is if the Sixers would of got the first pick instead of the second pick to pair Iverson with Tim Duncan, the Sixers win more titles then the Lakers from then on in and we would be asking ourselves whose better Iverson or Kobe, well Iverson got more titles but thats because of Duncan. And Duncan would have like 6 titles by this time.
This is a SUPER entertaining thread I must say
Llperez- instead of actually making any points, you just said "this is an lol comment"
What does Kobe do? average 4 assists for his career...no he doesnt creat shots for anyone hes worried about himself and putting up numbers. Actually back yourself up, you have no stance, you have no actual reasoning for kobe, just "you are wrong, i am right" with no substance. Congrats.
" I mean, how many acvtual coaches, players gms have siad he is the best?"
None that i know of, actually.
Defending 6-24 is probably the most bias part of your argument. Every non Laker fan on the planet has ripped that performance. But the stupid Laker fans are arguing that him getting 15 boards made him immortal. Foolish, really. How stupid laker fans are. And this threat is just another showing of how completely one sided they are. They dont even see the Duncan argument. They dont even agree that Timmy won 4 titles has his teams best player, something only a truely elite class of players have ever done. They dont even agree he was the best PF of alltime. They are just so incredibly bias, its sickening.
And finally, you completely ignored the fact 3 years of his prime he was a complete nonfactor in the NBA. He was all about himself, and no one took the Lakers as a serious threat for 3 years. Every other top 10-15 player of alltime was always a winner, a winner by nature. Duncan defined this better than mostly everyone.
you just keep showing bias man. Kobe was a non factor when he was dropping 35 a game? this stuff is honestly funny to me. How about you keep calling names it makes you sound mature.
alos numerous coaches and players have called kobe the best in the game over the last 5-6 seasons. Just becasue you arent aware doesnt mean it didnt happen. ANd those "lol" replies i gave you were all those somments of yours deserved. I would love for you to take those comments around maybe even start your own thread on them and see how many people agree with you.