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"Undersized power forward"

Adi Joseph
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"Undersized power forward"

I see this term being thrown out there all the time.

Kevin Love measured in at 6-foot-9 at the Combine. He's NOT undersized. Carl Landry was too. So was Carlos Boozer.

Charles Barkley was an undersized power forward. DeJuan Blair and Paul Millsap, too.

Look, 6-9 is adequate height for a power forward. Long arms would make a 6-8 player fine for the position. We really need to stop overstating this.

Yes, in the 1990s there was a fad where 6-11 and 7-foot players wanted to be called power forwards. It was, in part, a tactic to dodge the many great centers of the prior era early in players' careers.

It was also part of an era when the league was bigger.

We're in a phase where small ball is becoming more popular. When length and athleticism are more important than height.

Let's get with the times.

And, even if you don't want to agree, if you wouldn't have called Karl Malone undersized, you shouldn't call Love or Landry or Boozer or any other 6-9 power forward undersized, either. 


midwestbbscout
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isn't Landry like 6-7????

isn't Landry like 6-7????

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Carl Landry is undersized

Carl Landry is undersized b/c he is smaller than 90 percent of PF's in the league. This is an undersized topic.

Adi Joseph
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But he's not. Look at the

But he's not. Look at the list. 6-9 is perfectly average height for a power forward.

And yes, Landry is 6-9. He was listed at 6-7 in college for no apparent reason. Must have been measured as a freshman. 

fastdan
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In socks Love, Boozer, and

In socks Love, Boozer, and Landry were measured 6'7 3/4 at the combine, just to clear things up. Boozer weights more and has a longer wingspan, maybe that's why people don't consider him undersized.

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height

Landry 6'9
Boozer 6'8
Love 6'9 1/2
David Lee 6'9
Maxiel 6'7
Milsap 6'8
Blair 6'7

arman
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..

i think that barefoot measurment is stupid.... nobody plays barefoot..... if a guy is 6.7 or 6.8 barefoot and 6.9, in sneakers people are calling him undersized.... its not undersized,that normal height for pf.... undersized pfs are dejuan blair,chuck hayes (he plays c this year,but he is pf),maxiel... landry isnt undersized

joecheck88
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i agree, undersized is like

i agree, undersized is like 6 foot 6 or 7 after that u r ok. especially with long arms.

Slim
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...

6-9 is adequate height for a power forward.

But nobody wants adequate they want domination.

7'0 Dirk Nowitzki
"6'113/4" Kevin Garnett
Pau Gasol 7'1 270

1) The function of a power forward is to be a more offensively skilled center, a prerequisite for that is height advantage to create mismatches and such.

2) Usually The shorter you are the more you have to compensate with a face up jump shot and a slashing game, as opposed to a back to the basket game.

3) Basically Carl Landry or PFs in general should be expected to be a premier scorer in today's NBA where
the majority of teams have holes in there scoring a premier power forward is expected to help cover those wholes.

Not saying that Carl Landry cant but the shorter you are the less defensively inclined the power forward is, towards stopping someone like a Pau Gasol or a Dirk Nowitzki who has that size advantage. Unless they get physical that is lol.

Either way height is a constant advantagein this league and the shorter you are the more you give up on defense and the more you have to make your presence felt on offense.(See Chris Bosh/Amare)

In the past three years:
Spurs had Duncan and another F/C; Lakers had Gasol and Bynum/Mbenga; Celtics had Garnett and Perkins

BROAD GENERALIZATION:
twin towers is still in effect here; and the taller players usually have an easier time grabbing the boards (I call it "double teaming the boards where you have 2 tall players (PF & C) versus 1 tall player and another small player.

Eg Bynum and Gasol versus Howard and Rashard; Odds are that the Lakers are going to get some easy tip-ins with those line-up

and that's not using plus/minus, bcuz I know Mbenga probably has a horrible plus-minus, but just using common sense; size matters (most of the time)

Carl Landry is adequate height sure (6'8.5 with shoes 6'11 wingspan)
but
I'd still take Elton Brand over him (6'9.5 with shoes 7'5.5 wingspan) anyday

Slim
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...

And Karl Malone never won that ring!

I'd take a (healthy) 7'4 Ralph Sampson at power forward anyday. more "mismatch potential " lol

Height is a proven commodity.

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a healthy ralph sampson was

a healthy ralph sampson was also very quick, not just tall.

Your PF depends a lot on your center, if you have dwight a guy like boozer is less effective but if you had troy murphy next to howard then your set.

billyk
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A poward fowards job is

A poward fowards job is historically to be the defender, rebounder, and enforcer.... Height doesnt matter, production is what really matters... My favorite Pf of all time; Dennis Rodman... Ralph Sampson was not a power foward...

B-ball fan
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Most starting power forwards

Most starting power forwards in the league are under 6'10" Also, height listings in the 90s were probably less accurate (more generous). Carlos Boozer admitted that he is really 6'6". He claimed to be 6'8" to not be written off as undersized.

Slim
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@B-ball fan Carlos Boozer

@B-ball fan

Carlos Boozer admitted that he is really 6'6"; height listings in the 90s were probably less accurate

1) Carlos Boozer was drafted he measured at 6'8.5 in shoes; 258 lbs; with a 7'2 inch wingspan
2) Carlos Boozer was drafted in 2002, not the 90s
3) Carlos Boozer has average height, above average length, and as anybody can see above average strength

@billyk

"Ralph Sampson was not a power foward"
With his size and agility Sampson was expected to score like Wilt Chamberlain and win championships like Bill Russell when he reached the pros. The Houston Rockets made him the No. 1 pick in the 1983 NBA Draft. As a rookie he averaged 21.0 points and 11.1 rebounds, played in the All-Star Game, and won the NBA Rookie of the Year Award.

The Rockets managed only a 29-53 record in 1983-84 and again earned the right to pick first in the 1984 NBA Draft. This time they chose the 7-foot Hakeem Olajuwon out of the University of Houston. Many observers felt that the Rockets had made a mistake because it was believed that two 7-footers couldn’t play effectively together. But others thought the combination would be overpowering. Sampson, playing a new style of power forward, had new expectations placed upon him. At the time, Dallas Mavericks Coach Dick Motta said, "That front line, when history is written, when they’ve grown up, might be the best ever assembled on one team. Ever." Houston guard John Lucas said of Sampson’s move to forward, "He’ll revolutionize the game."

The so-called "Twin Towers" worked out pretty well. In 1984-85 the Rockets improved by 19 games to 48-34 and made the playoffs for the first time in three seasons. Sampson had his best individual campaign, averaging 22.1 points and 10.4 rebounds and earning a berth on the All-NBA Second Team. He and Olajuwon both played in the 1985 NBA All-Star Game, and Sampson, after scoring 24 points and grabbing 10 rebounds, earned the game’s MVP Award

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Sampson

Slim
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Ralph Sampson was not a

Ralph Sampson was not a power foward...

that's right he was a 7'4 guard...

"There are no positions in basketball...only mismatches." -MetatronDaDon

Slim
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.

.

Adi Joseph
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Dennis Rodman was 6-6 on a

Dennis Rodman was 6-6 on a good day. He wasn't defensively inclined? Ask an 6-11+ player how well he defended them?

While you're at it, ask about Chuck Hayes.

Height helps on defense, but it's hardly a prerequisite.

the lake show
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samll ball is becoming

samll ball is becoming popular not because thats what all these teams want but because the big men just arent as good as in the past.. all these teams would love to have a shaq at center and a duncan at power foward, but they cant because that 7'1 guys and that 6'11 guy that they do have isnt better then the 6'7 and 6'10 guy that they do have

the lake show
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thank you adi..i tried

thank you adi..i tried telling okee that before about height and about how skill and effort is more important then height and weight

Slim
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small ball is becoming

small ball is becoming popular not because thats what all these teams want but because the big men just arent as good as in the past.. all these teams would love to have a shaq at center and a duncan at power foward, but they cant because that 7'1 guys and that 6'11 guy that they do have isnt better then the 6'7 and 6'10 guy that they do have

@Quincey

I know, I'm saying its not a coincidence that twin towers wins games.

or that Phil Jackson puts Mbenga and Gasol lineup in against Rashard and Dwight

1 All Star versus 2 All Stars advantage Magic right?

maybe but Mbenga allows Lewis to try to grab rebounds from Gasol, not gonna happen

advantage Gasol. It's like chess theres a reason for everything.
-----

And Chuck Hayes?! R u serious?!

Slim
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@Adi Joseph "Dennis Rodman

@Adi Joseph
"Dennis Rodman was 6-6 on a good day. He wasn't defensively inclined? Ask an 6-11+ player how well he defended them?"

DEFENSE
I've already defended "shorter" power forwards, and how they use leverage and lower body strength to to take away your legs from underneath you.

OFFENSE
Either way my point was that on offense you have to develop a face up game if u are short to be effective on offense.

Unless you are Rodman and you hustle for the offensive rebound. But most players dont have the luxury of playing next to Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen.

-Chuck Hayes 5ppg is not going to get it done

-7'1 Pau Gasol produces more EWA than 6'7" Dennis Rodman coincidence?
NO. Pau Gasol is utilized in the offense more and thus has a better overall contribution to the game in terms of WIN contributions.
---------------------------
-Pau Gasol is a borderline franchise Rodman never developed that far.
-Rodman never generated more wins then any of the guys I mentioned in the twin towers other than Ralph Sampson, who "was be riddled with injuries 7'4.

Either way the shorter you are the more you have to work on offense to effect the game, unless you play next to Michael Jordan of course.

the lake show
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that made no sense...odom

that made no sense...odom and gasol play togeter wayy more then mbenga

rasheed is 6'10 and ben wallace is 6'7 but they won a title

hakeem won with out being one of the twin towers at 6'10

height helps but skill is the most important factor

you can take darko and mbenga as youre twin towers and ill take barkley and ben wallace and watch youre so called twin towers get punished..why?..cuz of skill not height..illtake skill over height any day of the week plus sunday..i wonder why chuck hayes plays more then mbenga?

and gasol is good because of his skill not because of his height..there are other 7'1 guys out there but you know why they arent on his level?..because of skill

Slim
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@Adi

@Adi

I admire Rodman's heart and hustle but in his championship years he did not produce as much as his other years.
even in his best years he did not produce as much as several tall power forwards.

In other words what I'm trying to say he was not a featured player on offense which hurt his production value even though he was an above avg. defensive force.

Chuck Hayes cannot be your starting center unless you overload the other positions on offense.

Smallball can win games, but NOWADAYS its vulnerable to superior players, who just happen to be taller and more offensively inclined to shooting over smaller players.

there is always a tradeoff between size, offense, defense, and shot selection

the lake show
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you dont think rodmans age

you dont think rodmans age during the bulls title years have something to do with his stats going down?...34,35,36?

matter of fact were you even born when he was winning a title or playing at his best?..i dont think youre qualified to talk about how good or bad rodamn was

Slim
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...

rasheed is 6'10 and ben wallace is 6'7 but they won a title

Offense: Chauncey "Mr. Big Shot"Billups
Offense: Rip Hamilton
Defense: Tayshaun Prince (locked Kobe up)
Offense: Rasheed Wallace
Defense: Ben Wallace is 6'7 but he was 260 lbs and outplayed Shaq with athletic shotblocking
-------

why did Mbenga even play? size/ matchup purposes
---
height helps but skill is the most important factor

I agree

Slim
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and Pippen and Jordan had

and Pippen and Jordan had enuff skill to compensate for Rodman's lack of offense

its all about skill and mismatch purposes.

Jordan was a post scorer thats why bulls won without a center imo

the lake show
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yeah you were about 5,6 or 7

yeah you were about 5,6 or 7 when the bulls were winning there last coupel titles so i cant really take what you say about them to seriously

mwardia
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the nba now is a gaurds

the nba now is a gaurds game, when b4 it wasn't so much of

the lake show
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i disagree...just seems that

i disagree...just seems that way because there arent that many good big men liek in the past..in the past there wer alot of good guards and good big men

jordan
drexler
terrell brandon
kenny's
mitch
spree
penny
gary
stockton
rider
tim hardaway
rod strickland
jeff malone
joe dumars
vanexl
horney
nick anderson
dennis scott
mark price
thudar dan
starks
on and on

Slim
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Me: Jordan and Pippen were a

Me: Jordan and Pippen were a dominant scorer thats why bulls won without a center imo

Quncey: yeah you were about 5,6 or 7 when the bulls were winning there last coupel titles so i cant really take what you say about them to seriously
----

?? at 5, 6, or 7 I knew that "couple" was spelled "c-o-u-p-l-e not c-o-u-p-e-l, and that "to" is used to refer to a destination, not as an adjective

You're a 30 yearold Laker fanboy, I really cant take what you're saying seriously.

Slim
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you dont think rodmans age

you dont think rodmans age during the bulls title years have something to do with his stats going down?...34,35,36?

matter of fact were you even born when he was winning a title or playing at his best?..i dont think youre qualified to talk about how good or bad "rodamn" was
------

no like I said before Rodman was a very, very well conditioned athlete, after the Bulls would complete their own teaam training regimen, Rodman would do what I call "extracurriculars", his age didnt have anything to do with his numners
bulls title years.

As a matter of fact Dennis Rodman's number speak for themselves. Future Hall of Famer. Arguably the best rebounder in the modern era. He was never a scorer though.

At age 26 he averaged 11.6 ppg. He never averaged double digits on championship squads.

Slim
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Me: Usually The shorter you

Me:
Usually The shorter you are the more you have to compensate with a face up jump shot and a slashing game, as opposed to a back to the basket game.
---
"standing next to him he looks 6'5 maybe 6'5 and a half.. thats just by looking at him...i doubt he's 6'7 though.. really doubt....

"for somereason everytime i watch these guys play i like to walk next to them to try to figure out there true height... his height will hinder him as far as nba prospect if he doesnt get better handles or better jumper..."

quency talking about JayVaughn Pinkston
---------

Me: Basically Carl Landry or PFs in general should be expected to be a premier scorer in today's NBA where
the majority of teams have holes in there scoring a premier power forward is expected to help cover those holes.

Adi: While you're at it, ask about Chuck Hayes.
Height helps on defense, but it's hardly a prerequisite.
---------------

Okay, I misspoke not for man to man defense but having what about wingspan for blocking shots?
What about low post offense?

Low post offense, isos/putbacks are more of mismatch percentage-wise, would increase with size (height AND wingspan)
for a lot of players.

Maybe not overall skill but back to the basket post offense.
-----------

I'll take a lesser skilled Ralph Sampson for height advantage if you take a smaller Chuck Hayes for defensive inclination, fair enough.

Nobody said that height was a prerequisite for having skill, I just said that in the modern game, Pau Gasol had a height advantage in the playoffs last year and that's why the Lakers won.
----
Small Ball(with skilled players)= Offense

Tall Ball(with skilled players)= Shotblocking/Offensive Rebounds
---------

Slim
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...

The NBA is a guard's game
---------

No rebounds, no rings. An undersized team like Miami wont make it far

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