[valentine]

I often read bigman scouting reports say ‘excellent timing on blocking shots". I know it might sound crazy, but to me, this is a red flag.

Throughout my amatuer bball career I was a decent shotblocker. In fact I modelled my game after Andre Kirilenko. So I feel qualified to talk on the subject matter.

Firstly, I want to differentiate between 2 types of blocks.

1) Athletic blocks – which involve elevating into the air and swatting it away. This requires great ‘timing’. Consider this the Serge Ibaka or Nerlens Noel type of block. It gets swatted out of bounds a lot or back to an opposition player, resulting in no net gain. It also involves not putting a body on an opponent, thus enabling a free run/jump at the ball. It also means giving deep position to your opponent and risk of offensive boards.

2) Flat footed blocks – This involves getting in good defensive position early with one or two hands straight up in the air. Think Mark Eaton, Andrew Bogut or Marc Gasol. They require strength to hold their ground initially, and require little, if any elevation off the court. The result is a smothering type block that often results in the shot falling short, for easy defensive rebounds. It is more about positioning than timing…and is more disruptive even if the shot isnt technically blocked.

 

Hypothesis: I believe that players who get lots of athletic blocks are gambling for swats to the point where the statistics become misleading. They might average a high number of blocks, but the lack of physicality on defense and the gambling nature of leaving your feet results in easy baskets. Once guys like AD or Skal Labissiere are in the air, they are out of position for rebounds and out of position to defend in case of a pump-fake. This is why teams with high shotblocking numbers aren’t always high in rim protection %. If you miss the block, the opposition can score in a whole new variety of ways.

Being a sound flat-footed shot blocker allows players to make adjustments and rotations, and the ball is more likely to ricochet to your teams advantage. Take Draymond Green for example. Rarely leaves his feet, yet hes a DPOY candidate. So its not just about being tall. Ideally, you can do both when the situation calls for it, ala Mutumbo or Gobert.

Am I crazy? Are all blocks created equally. Is high block numbers always a sign of good defense.

Discuss

 

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

 My favorite sequence in basketball is when a guy swats a shot out of bounds pumps his chest out, gives the guy a big stare down…and on the ensuing inbound, the team hits a 3-pointer or gets a dunk. 

I’m sure there are stats out there either backing up or refuting your point but I generally agree. 

Guys hunt blocks and for every shot they block or alter, their man is able to get a rebound or gets position which puts the rest of the team in position to pick up fouls or something.

There’s obviously value in "rim protection"…perhaps more than "shot blocking" because if guys are blocking shots, there’s a lot of penetration already where good postion defenders would cut off a shot attempt or alter one without needing to block it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

 My favorite sequence in basketball is when a guy swats a shot out of bounds pumps his chest out, gives the guy a big stare down…and on the ensuing inbound, the team hits a 3-pointer or gets a dunk. 

I’m sure there are stats out there either backing up or refuting your point but I generally agree. 

Guys hunt blocks and for every shot they block or alter, their man is able to get a rebound or gets position which puts the rest of the team in position to pick up fouls or something.

There’s obviously value in "rim protection"…perhaps more than "shot blocking" because if guys are blocking shots, there’s a lot of penetration already where good postion defenders would cut off a shot attempt or alter one without needing to block it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hype Machine]

Exactly…I’m going to do some bush-league statistics here, focussing on a key point you mentioned. "Possession ending blocks". 

The very best shot-blockers average around 3bpg. Theoretically, thats a maximum of 6 points prevented since rarely are 3pt shots blocked by Big Men.  

Yet…that isn’t really the case. In fact, its really closer to 1 or 2 points prevented from blocks alone, per game. I’ll tell you how I got to that number. 

1) Half the shots they block go back to the opposition, or out of bounds, giving them another attempt. As this isn’t a "Possession Ending Block", only 1.5 blocks (out of 3) are of any value. 

2) Of those 1.5 "Possession ending blocks’, Around half the shots would have missed anyways, resulting in a defensive rebound. Meaning that for 3 blocked shots, only 0.75 "Made FG’s" are prevented. This equals 1.5 points…per game. 

I would much rather a flat-footed defender who can recover those 1.5 points up via contesting shots through verticality, maintaining rebounding and recovery/rotation position, staying open to offensive fouls and providing physicality. It comes at the expense of Athletic and Weakside blocks, yet for an extra 1 to 1.5 blocks per game, its not worth it. 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hype Machine]

Exactly…I’m going to do some bush-league statistics here, focussing on a key point you mentioned. "Possession ending blocks". 

The very best shot-blockers average around 3bpg. Theoretically, thats a maximum of 6 points prevented since rarely are 3pt shots blocked by Big Men.  

Yet…that isn’t really the case. In fact, its really closer to 1 or 2 points prevented from blocks alone, per game. I’ll tell you how I got to that number. 

1) Half the shots they block go back to the opposition, or out of bounds, giving them another attempt. As this isn’t a "Possession Ending Block", only 1.5 blocks (out of 3) are of any value. 

2) Of those 1.5 "Possession ending blocks’, Around half the shots would have missed anyways, resulting in a defensive rebound. Meaning that for 3 blocked shots, only 0.75 "Made FG’s" are prevented. This equals 1.5 points…per game. 

I would much rather a flat-footed defender who can recover those 1.5 points up via contesting shots through verticality, maintaining rebounding and recovery/rotation position, staying open to offensive fouls and providing physicality. It comes at the expense of Athletic and Weakside blocks, yet for an extra 1 to 1.5 blocks per game, its not worth it. 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[morestealsthanscoresParticipant]

+1 for the bush league statistics – I love this post

[morestealsthanscoresParticipant]

+1 for the bush league statistics – I love this post

[Mr. HookShotParticipant]

I always wonder why these players swat away some of these shots, if they could also catch them mid-air. Is that not allowed? Or what is the issue there? 

[Mr. HookShotParticipant]

I always wonder why these players swat away some of these shots, if they could also catch them mid-air. Is that not allowed? Or what is the issue there? 

[Hype Machine]

One could even argue that blocking an off balance, low % shot out of bounds is actually more harm than good.

If the shot was unlikely of going in anyways…why give them a fresh look. This happens a lot on weakside blocks where an out-of-control player driving through the paint throws up some garbage under immense defensive pressure. Don’t swat it out of bounds!

Hassan Whiteside is the king of the Defensive Gamble. 

Tim Duncan is a prime example of a flat footed shot blocker. Only way to score is over his outstretched arms. You might get a clean shot off, but if it only scores 40% of the time then its an inefficient attempt.

 

 

[Hype Machine]

One could even argue that blocking an off balance, low % shot out of bounds is actually more harm than good.

If the shot was unlikely of going in anyways…why give them a fresh look. This happens a lot on weakside blocks where an out-of-control player driving through the paint throws up some garbage under immense defensive pressure. Don’t swat it out of bounds!

Hassan Whiteside is the king of the Defensive Gamble. 

Tim Duncan is a prime example of a flat footed shot blocker. Only way to score is over his outstretched arms. You might get a clean shot off, but if it only scores 40% of the time then its an inefficient attempt.

 

 

[MopgrassParticipant]

I don’t completely disagree, but there are some caveats.

Blocking shots and being a shot blocker is intimidating and has a psychological affect. It’s crazy embarrassing to have your shot blocked. That’s why guys beat their chest after a big block. The game is about numbers, but it’s also about people and how they react to embarrassment, amongst other things. There have always been players down low that others will think twice about running up against. THAT kind of rim protection helps you win games. People stay away from the key and it limits the kind of game the other team plays. That, I think, is the biggest benefit to shot blocking. More to your point, though, I think there are very few such players that intimidate players in the way I’m talking about.

If you really just need a big body who will go straight up and not give ground, Roy Hibbert should be the best center in the league. He is not. I’ll take Nerlens Noel on defense any day over him.

Here’s the other issue I take: just going straight up and down? That’s all? Offensive players adjust. Does the player only go straight up and down? No problem, do a step back jumper or go around. This is exactly why Roy Hibbert is awful. No, he doesn’t gamble for blocks and never has foul trouble, dude just bodies up and goes straight up. Everyone goes around. If you went straight up and try to adjust, reaching for the guy who just got by you, you’ll get a foul called on you. If you body up and go straight up, you can’t do anything else.

How much do the Roy Hibberts of the world stop or affect Russell Westbrook? Nerlens might.

I agree that shot blocking is probably overrated. I think most real rim protection starts at 5-10 feet away or further, not so much right at the rack. It’s about the guards not letting their guy by and bigger guys stopping players from gaining momentum in the 5-10 feet away range. And then rotating properly and making sure no one gets the backdoor olley-oop. Team defense can do more for stopping scoring than blocks ever will.

[MopgrassParticipant]

I don’t completely disagree, but there are some caveats.

Blocking shots and being a shot blocker is intimidating and has a psychological affect. It’s crazy embarrassing to have your shot blocked. That’s why guys beat their chest after a big block. The game is about numbers, but it’s also about people and how they react to embarrassment, amongst other things. There have always been players down low that others will think twice about running up against. THAT kind of rim protection helps you win games. People stay away from the key and it limits the kind of game the other team plays. That, I think, is the biggest benefit to shot blocking. More to your point, though, I think there are very few such players that intimidate players in the way I’m talking about.

If you really just need a big body who will go straight up and not give ground, Roy Hibbert should be the best center in the league. He is not. I’ll take Nerlens Noel on defense any day over him.

Here’s the other issue I take: just going straight up and down? That’s all? Offensive players adjust. Does the player only go straight up and down? No problem, do a step back jumper or go around. This is exactly why Roy Hibbert is awful. No, he doesn’t gamble for blocks and never has foul trouble, dude just bodies up and goes straight up. Everyone goes around. If you went straight up and try to adjust, reaching for the guy who just got by you, you’ll get a foul called on you. If you body up and go straight up, you can’t do anything else.

How much do the Roy Hibberts of the world stop or affect Russell Westbrook? Nerlens might.

I agree that shot blocking is probably overrated. I think most real rim protection starts at 5-10 feet away or further, not so much right at the rack. It’s about the guards not letting their guy by and bigger guys stopping players from gaining momentum in the 5-10 feet away range. And then rotating properly and making sure no one gets the backdoor olley-oop. Team defense can do more for stopping scoring than blocks ever will.

[Knicks44Participant]

getting your shot swatted away like a volleyball spike gets stuck in your head and it does have a psychological effect on you. Next time you think twice about it because you don’t want that to happen again. Not only it has a negative effect on the opposite team it has a positive effect on your own team. Blocking someone’s shot and sending it to the stands gets the team pumped and excited. It gets people going. That’s why athletic shot blockers who spike the balls to the stands are important to teams. Don’t get me wrong, players such as whiteside who always look to block someone and often give up wide open lay ups or offensive rebounds all the time. You can’t be a great shot blocker if you are only a one dimensional blocker, that’s why Rudy Gobert is very impressive on defense because he has great timing, feel for the defense, length and athleticism to send the ball to the stands or to just tip the shot.

[Knicks44Participant]

getting your shot swatted away like a volleyball spike gets stuck in your head and it does have a psychological effect on you. Next time you think twice about it because you don’t want that to happen again. Not only it has a negative effect on the opposite team it has a positive effect on your own team. Blocking someone’s shot and sending it to the stands gets the team pumped and excited. It gets people going. That’s why athletic shot blockers who spike the balls to the stands are important to teams. Don’t get me wrong, players such as whiteside who always look to block someone and often give up wide open lay ups or offensive rebounds all the time. You can’t be a great shot blocker if you are only a one dimensional blocker, that’s why Rudy Gobert is very impressive on defense because he has great timing, feel for the defense, length and athleticism to send the ball to the stands or to just tip the shot.

[BigChamp12Participant]

 I’ve always been a big Time shot blocker, At the college and pro level. Shot blocking is desired trait. Especially in today’s game where guards get to the rim with ease. In my opinion it’s a reach to expect a guy to block shots and keep them alive every play. Also, in the case where a guys goes flying to get a block and he misses it, he’s done his job, which is to contest all shots. It now becomes the guards rotation to box out. I often hear certain commentators say things like "Dwight went to go block the shot and left the lane open for an offensive rebound" But that’s what your job is as a shot blocker.

Yes, intimidation is a big part of shot blocking. Guys think twice about driving when they see certain shot blockers in there. And whether it goes out of bounds or into the hands of another opponent, the job is still to contest all shots. Protect the rim. When you rotate, you’ve done your job. 

Also, anyone can put their hands in their hands in the air without jumping. Anyone can’t leave their man and go block a floater by Tony Parker. 

Some people like to look at the final end result to gauge the success of the play as In like the OP said, he blocked the ball out of bounds then the offense made a 3. Ultimately meaning it was a bad block. But thats like saying getting a steal while the time had 1 shot on the shot clock only to dribble it right out of bounds, was a bad steal. That’s looking too far into it. Some things just happen. 

[BigChamp12Participant]

 I’ve always been a big Time shot blocker, At the college and pro level. Shot blocking is desired trait. Especially in today’s game where guards get to the rim with ease. In my opinion it’s a reach to expect a guy to block shots and keep them alive every play. Also, in the case where a guys goes flying to get a block and he misses it, he’s done his job, which is to contest all shots. It now becomes the guards rotation to box out. I often hear certain commentators say things like "Dwight went to go block the shot and left the lane open for an offensive rebound" But that’s what your job is as a shot blocker.

Yes, intimidation is a big part of shot blocking. Guys think twice about driving when they see certain shot blockers in there. And whether it goes out of bounds or into the hands of another opponent, the job is still to contest all shots. Protect the rim. When you rotate, you’ve done your job. 

Also, anyone can put their hands in their hands in the air without jumping. Anyone can’t leave their man and go block a floater by Tony Parker. 

Some people like to look at the final end result to gauge the success of the play as In like the OP said, he blocked the ball out of bounds then the offense made a 3. Ultimately meaning it was a bad block. But thats like saying getting a steal while the time had 1 shot on the shot clock only to dribble it right out of bounds, was a bad steal. That’s looking too far into it. Some things just happen. 

[DolanCareParticipant]

 Hmm. I like your theory, but to answer your question, you’re about 50% valid. You are completely right that gifted atheltes often unnecessarily look for blocks which can lead to dumb fouls and poor defensive/rebounding positioning. But that doesn’t mean ‘good timing’ is a bad thing and definitely doesn’t mean ‘athletic blocks are overrated’. 

1) Only the very tall can flat-foot block. Porzingis had been solid on this front. Mark Eaton, as you mentioned, was another flat-footed disruptor. These guys can get away with such a low-risk move because they a standing reach that is in the .000001 percentile of homo sapiens. If you’re very tall, by all means, do not leave your feet. But it’s difficult to make this the standard for all defenders. 

2) Flat footed blocking only works for on-ball defense. I may be wrong, but I can’t think of a single time I saw a help-side block while someone remained flat footed. One of the greatest aspects of Serge Ibaka, Anthony Davis and Andrei Kirilenko games were their ability to leave their area, have the ‘timing’ to know when to leave their defensive assignment and block a shot. So yes, ‘good timing’ is very important. 

Positioning is super important too, don’t get me wrong, especially for taking charges. But if a help defender tries for a flat footed block, most NBA ball handlers will have the presence of mind to pass to the open teammate. A well-time athletic block, on the other hand, can erase a shot without creating another scoring opporunity. 

 

 

 

 

[DolanCareParticipant]

 Hmm. I like your theory, but to answer your question, you’re about 50% valid. You are completely right that gifted atheltes often unnecessarily look for blocks which can lead to dumb fouls and poor defensive/rebounding positioning. But that doesn’t mean ‘good timing’ is a bad thing and definitely doesn’t mean ‘athletic blocks are overrated’. 

1) Only the very tall can flat-foot block. Porzingis had been solid on this front. Mark Eaton, as you mentioned, was another flat-footed disruptor. These guys can get away with such a low-risk move because they a standing reach that is in the .000001 percentile of homo sapiens. If you’re very tall, by all means, do not leave your feet. But it’s difficult to make this the standard for all defenders. 

2) Flat footed blocking only works for on-ball defense. I may be wrong, but I can’t think of a single time I saw a help-side block while someone remained flat footed. One of the greatest aspects of Serge Ibaka, Anthony Davis and Andrei Kirilenko games were their ability to leave their area, have the ‘timing’ to know when to leave their defensive assignment and block a shot. So yes, ‘good timing’ is very important. 

Positioning is super important too, don’t get me wrong, especially for taking charges. But if a help defender tries for a flat footed block, most NBA ball handlers will have the presence of mind to pass to the open teammate. A well-time athletic block, on the other hand, can erase a shot without creating another scoring opporunity. 

 

 

 

 

[JoeWolf1]

It’s not exclusive. The most skilled ( key word here ) shot blocker I’ve seen at the collegiate level was Jeff Withey. Now, Jeff had amazing timing and skill swatting shots, but it certainly wasn’t because he was flying through the air gambling on the weak side, and it certainly wasn’t because his slight frame was body’ing up on people and creating contact.

He just had great timing, and did so without fouling. He could go straight up and down, and block shots flat footed, but he was also completely masterful at closing out and timing blocks without gambling. While I think your theory has some merit, I don’t think it’s the end all be all. You can be both a skilled shot blocker, and not a gambler. Guys who can do it with both hands depending on how the shot evolves, are things to look for in terms of timing, as well as high block numbers to low foul numbers.

Withey, I feel, is in neither group, but is a masterful shot blocker with great timing, and not so impressive athletic ability. He’s also proved to be a potent shot blocker in the NBA, as was evident in his time as a starter when Gobert was down with an injury. (2.3 blocks per game in 25.1 minutes per game in 9 games as a starter)

[JoeWolf1]

It’s not exclusive. The most skilled ( key word here ) shot blocker I’ve seen at the collegiate level was Jeff Withey. Now, Jeff had amazing timing and skill swatting shots, but it certainly wasn’t because he was flying through the air gambling on the weak side, and it certainly wasn’t because his slight frame was body’ing up on people and creating contact.

He just had great timing, and did so without fouling. He could go straight up and down, and block shots flat footed, but he was also completely masterful at closing out and timing blocks without gambling. While I think your theory has some merit, I don’t think it’s the end all be all. You can be both a skilled shot blocker, and not a gambler. Guys who can do it with both hands depending on how the shot evolves, are things to look for in terms of timing, as well as high block numbers to low foul numbers.

Withey, I feel, is in neither group, but is a masterful shot blocker with great timing, and not so impressive athletic ability. He’s also proved to be a potent shot blocker in the NBA, as was evident in his time as a starter when Gobert was down with an injury. (2.3 blocks per game in 25.1 minutes per game in 9 games as a starter)

[Andrew1984Participant]

 In my playing career, I always blocked more shots than you’d expect a 5-10 guard to block, and almost every single one of them was flat-footed. Staying on the floor ensures against getting a foul called and it’s amazing how many offensive players leave the ball unprotected, where it’s easy to smack.

[Andrew1984Participant]

 In my playing career, I always blocked more shots than you’d expect a 5-10 guard to block, and almost every single one of them was flat-footed. Staying on the floor ensures against getting a foul called and it’s amazing how many offensive players leave the ball unprotected, where it’s easy to smack.

[OhCanada-Participant]

 The biggest thing a blocked shot will do is shift momentum. It shows the opposition that easy buckets will not be aloud and inspires confidence within teammates. This makes a big difference on the court. When your opponent is hesitant on driving to the lane for buckets it can change the game. 

[OhCanada-Participant]

 The biggest thing a blocked shot will do is shift momentum. It shows the opposition that easy buckets will not be aloud and inspires confidence within teammates. This makes a big difference on the court. When your opponent is hesitant on driving to the lane for buckets it can change the game. 

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