[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 Not sure what brought this topic into my head but it’s an interesting question. While many consider Stockton to be the best pure floor general in the history of the game, he was far from a can’t miss prospect coming out of Gonzaga, which was a remote mid-major at the time and nowhere close to the powerhouse it is now. He was considered by many to be too unathletic and not enough of a scoring threat at the time, and this was during an era when the standards for athleticism and scoring from the pg position were far less than they are now. There wasn’t really much about him that screamed future HOF at the time.

We all know how things turned out. Utah gave Stockton a chance and the rest is history. But given the changes in the game and how much scouts value athleticism nowadays, would any team draft a player with Stockton’s profile today? There have been several players with similar builds and college resumes who have slipped through the cracks and wind up never getting that chance that Stockton did. It’s at least something to think about. I think it’s entirely possible that we may never see another player like Stockton in the nba, not necessarily because that player isn’t out there, but because even if he is he may never get the chance as that just isn’t what teams generally look for anymore at the pg position.

 

[HobbyOGParticipant]

 I think he would, people forget that Stockton was one of the best defensive PG’s of all-time. He had a high IQ, good passer, floor general, etc. Might not be a top 5 pick or something but he would def go in the first round and be a factor..heck we know POP wouldn’t pass on him in the first. 

[Scrooge McDuckParticipant]

 Stockton was really before my time. But to think one of the greatest point guards of all time went undrafted is amazing.

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

He didn’t go undrafted. Utah took him 16th in the 1984 draft. But the nba and what teams look for at the pg position has changed a lot since then. My question is, without knowing what he would become, would a player Stockton be drafted today? 

[TarHeelRavenParticipant]

 Teams are enamored with otherwordly athletic PG’s today like John Wall, Russell Westbrook and Derrick Rose before his multitude of injuries.  You don’t need to be uberathletic to be a great PG.  Steve Nash is probably the best comparison.  Compared to Westbrook and Derrick Rose, Nash is really unathletic.  Nash’s high basketball IQ, passing vision, ball-handling and leadership made him great.  Forget the fact he was unathletic, slow and probably never dunked once in a game.  

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 There are quite a few parallels between Nash and Stockton. Both were under the radar players who came from tiny schools and neither was expected to have anywhere near the types of careers they did. Both relied on fundamentals and supreme basketball iq to make up for a lack of physical gifts. Both were unbelievable passers.

However, there were some notable differences in style of play between the 2. Nash was bigger than Stockton and a better pure scorer. He was a more creative finisher and unlike Stockton came into the league with the reputation as a knock down shooter. Stockton was also one of the peskiest defenders in the league throughout his career, while Nash was probably one of the worst. 

As far as guys that are currently in the league, I can’t really think of anyone who resembles Stockton much.

 

 

[RUDEBOY-Participant]

 Stockton wasn’t considered a nba prospect until his outstanding senior season. Yet some said he would be a late 1st rounder or 2nd rounder. His stock rose when He caught the eyes of a lot of teams during 1984 Olympic tryouts. Gongaza has become a high profile team recently . Which it wasn’t Back during Stockton time. I think if he was coming out today he’ll go lottery. 

[cominup7Participant]

He’d get drafted, but probably somewhere in the 2nd round. No way he’d go as high as he did, he’d be getting Delladova and TJ McConnell comps

[HobbyOGParticipant]

 If Elfrid Payton and Cameron Payne can go lottery (non-athletic PG’s to me)  then so can Stockton..comparing him to Delladova and TJ McConnell is sooo disrespectful…

[Bad DogParticipant]

It might sound crazy to some to suggest he would go that high but I think it would be very possible, especially with todays trends. If Stock were a current draft prospect, based on his historical skill set, I imagine he would be compared to guys like Steve Nash and Steph Curry on the high end and Trae Young on the low end. Considering Young was a top 5 pick just two months ago and both Curry and Nash are both two time MVPs of the modern era, I believe Stock would be in the top 5 of several GMs draft boards. Now, how he would fare once he got to the league is another debate

[cohenbc1Participant]

Is Jalen Brunson a good point of reference? He just had a historically efficient season as a PG in terms of shooting and distributing the ball. The knocks on him are his size and explosiveness, and his projected ability to score in the NBA.

Of course, Brunson won two titles with one of the most prominent teams in college hoops, while Stockton played in obscurity at a mid-major on the West Coast, in an era when the NBA finals were broadcast late at night on tape-delay.

Still Brunson dropped to the early 2nd round. I don’t know what the scouting report was on Stockton in 1984, but it’s hard to imagine he would have gone *ahead* of Brunson in 2018. I mean, imagine if a guy had basically a Brunson-like career, only at the University of Idaho.

 

 

[HobbyOGParticipant]

 Stockton a way better facilator then Brunson and I like Brunson, Suns screwed up not drafting him late 1st or early 2nd, he could start for them. 

[cohenbc1Participant]

Well yeah, as it turned out he was a better facilitator than anyone in history not named Magic Johnson. But did anyone see that in him in 1984?

I agree Brunson would have been a great fit on the Suns.

 

 

 

[high floorParticipant]

I think Elie Okobo has a chance to be pretty dang good….. and I’m willing to put my chips in the middle on him. He’s a crafty, athletic combo guard with some D’Angelo Russell qualities on offense, and some pretty decent defensive chops to boot.

If you dive into some of his film / highlights…… he can jump off both feet & finish with both hands at a good rate in the paint. That’s typically a great sign that his ability will transition to the pros once he gets used to the speed and physicality of the NBA game. 

Phoenix also already signed him to a 4yr contract, a significant gesture regarding the team’s early faith in his ability

 

 

 

 

[The GoatParticipant]

 Stockton had everything except that he didn’t scream down the lane dunking the ball. He would have to be a lottery pick. Great passing and IQ obviously, but very good defensively, had a good 3 ball, made his free throws..  these things would have been evident at the college level. But then again, he was never a guy that would’ve left as a freshman, so maybe the current NBA would’ve looked past him in the first round if he wasn’t gathering headlines or all over YouTube.

Without looking it up,  i am fairly certain he shot over .500 on FGs almost every year and almost never missed a game, playing all 82 plus playoffs. He had a long career too. 

Barkley once said he was the best player he ever played against, and although he talks crap and was trying to no doubt needle MJ, I have no doubt Chuck rated him very highly. 

[Evan_MilbergParticipant]

It depends.

Are we assuming in this hypothetical that Stockton puts up the exact same numbers and plays the same way in 2018 as he did in 1983-84? The reason I ask is because if we’re assuming that’s the case, Stockton’s defensive prowess would have today’s scouts drooling. To me, the only thing better than an uber-athletic PG is one who can shut them down. If we’re talking about 1983 Stockton superimposed today, he’s easily a mid-late first rounder off novelty alone. 

However, you can argue that Stockton’s game was adapted to the era he played in and that in today’s era, his game would likely be a bit different. He’d probably be seen like Frank Mason, an undersized, low risk/low-ceiling player with good shooting ability and great intangibles. Mason was a high second round pick last year, which I think would make sense for the version of Stockton’s game that values 3 pt shooting more than leadership and defense.

[ThepessimestParticipant]

 The funny thing about this discussion is the most devasting player at the point guard position most believe is Steph Curry. Steph while being taller than Stockton does not boast tons of "fast twitch" athletic ability. Instead he plays the game with change of pace, moving without the ball, angles, extreme hand eye coordination and elite shot making ability from anywhere on the court. 

In short…. for the most part greatness will always shine through. Stockton was fast and had huge hands. He saw plays before anyone else did. He was a great great shooter although his temperament was to set others up. You could not go under screens on him and if you went over he would make the right play almost every single time.

Steve Nash had a great career by doing the same things and the 2 mentioned above him. Hand eye was crazy. Shot making was silly. Visition was insane. 

When you can shoot, pass, and have an elite basketball IQ you can play in any era.

To answer your question I do worry that most of these scouts would miss on Stockton because they often look at tangibles these days instead of players who know how to play. Athleticism and scoring are over-emphasized in today’s game when evaluating prospects. So there is a strong case to be made that perhaps Stockton could be overlooked if he were playing today. Which would say more about the scouts than it would Stockton.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scrooge McDuckParticipant]

 Agreed. This whole thread is like trash talking Stockton, especially that dude dazzling dunks.

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 Stop it. Nobody is trashing Stockton. The guy was one of the best pgs the league has ever seen and I believe he would have been great in any era if given the chance. This is just a hypothetical question about how scouts would view a prospect like Stockton if he came out of college today. 

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 Just based on the way players are evaluated today, I have a really hard time seeing how someone like Stockton would be drafted in the lottery. You have to remember that he was a 4 year guy who wasn’t even really on the radar until a breakout senior season. How many 4 year college guys, with questionable athleticism and who played against low level college competition do you see getting drafted in the lottery today. It just doesn’t happen. 

My guess is that, just strictly based on his college reputation, most teams would view a player like Stockton as someone who could develop into a solid backup pg. While coaches and gms would no doubt love his toughness and iq, there would be concerns about whether he was enough of a threat scoring the ball, his size, and whether his defense would translate to the next level. I think he’d most likely be pegged as a second rounder at best, although he could play his way into the first with some strong predraft workouts and performances. 

This is no knock on Stockton as a player. I think he could absolutely still succeed and be a great player in today’s game if given the opportunity. I’m just not sure the opportunity would have been as forthcoming today. 

 

 

[BasterdInABasketParticipant]

 He would have been David Stockton in todays NbA, same career path.

[r377Participant]

 As Rudeboy said Stockton was bit of an unknown until his senior year.

He did have a chance to try out for the 1984 Olympic team. Coach at that time was Bobby Knight and last PG spot he took Steve Alford (Indiana) over John Stockton.

If Stockton had made that Olympic team he might have gone a bit higher.

Now to TODAY. So many one and done freshmen stars, Stockton was a 4 year player. So much emphasis today on pre-draft workout specs and with his height and weight going against him I would assume he would slide.  Stockton is not very athetic, tall or big wingspan, there is no way he goes 16 in todays game. When was the last time a 4 year player was drafted in the lottery ?

 

 

 

[MkadozaParticipant]

Buddy Hield 2016. Frank Kaminski 2015. Doug McDermott 2014. CJ McCollum 2013.

[MkadozaParticipant]

 A couple things that haven’t been mentioned. John Stockton played in a college era with NO 3 pointer, thus the evaluation process would be entirely different. If he proved to be a knock down three point shooter in todays game, with his collegiate pedigree, hes a no doubt first rounder. 

Secondly, his field goal percentage was astronomical. Dude shot 57% or better three of his four college years. His down junior year? 51.6%. The guy could make shots anywhere within 20 feet with ease and was a pick and roll killer from day one. 

Last, his free throw percentage was bad. Like 72% for his college career, boeyed by a 79% junior year. (Ironic no?) Many advanced metric types say that free throw percentage is the greatest indicator of future three point proficiency. Stockton bucks the trend. Throught a lot of hard work, Stockton went from a poor free throw and three point shooter to a serious threat in both. 

Which brings me to the final thought. Yes, he would be drafted. Most likely in the middle to late first. But it doesnt matter. Stockton make Stockton great. And in any era, at any draft position, he would have been a Hall of Famer. They say defense is 90% effort, and clearly based on his defensive prowess and career longetivity, Stockton had effort in Spades.

[r377Participant]

 

Yes, I was going to mention Stocktons poor college FT shooting.  He was not that good in college, since there was no 3 pointer stats in NCAA, FT is prob a good way to gauge someone shooting ability.

 

 

 

Steve Alford was a great college, player, he shot 53% and 90% ft career stats while playing for nationally publicized Indiana Hoosiers.  He was expected to be selected 11^th overall by the home town Pacers in the 1987 draft, but slid all the way down to 26^th overall.  Kevin Johnson, Kenny Smith, Muggsy and Mark Jackson all got drafted before Alford.

 

 

 

1984 was draft was weak for PG – only 4 went in the first round. Leon Wood was a huge gamble, Jay Humphries, Stockton and Vern Fleming.

 

[top prospectParticipant]

Stock absolutly wouldn’t get drafted today. No diss to the HOFer but scouts are looking for entertainment not IQ, leapers not winners. Teams are looking to sell tickets and subscriptions whether US or overseas. 

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

John Stockton clearly wouldn’t be a player who’d stand out at the draft combine, but I think he’d be one of those players who’s college resume and draft workouts would put him in the first round. I think he’d be a mid to late teens first round pick. 

With the way the game is played now, you could argue that Stockton would be even more effective than he was back when he played. Could you imagine him playing in a spread offense with shooters everywhere and a five man who could pick and pop out to the three point line? That offense would be a nightmare to defend. He’s arguably the best guard ever in regards to using ball screens, reading and reacting, etc. He’d be a 50, 40 and 85 guy in today’s NBA. Throw in double figure assists and 2 steals as well.

 

 

 

[cohenbc1Participant]

The Jazz had an early prototype of that offense in their finals against the Bulls … I think the guy’s name was Foster? He was Ostertag’s backup at center. He could shoot 3s, although bigs as a rule did not shoot them at anywhere near the rate they do today.

Anyway, one image from those series burned into my memory: Stockton running the fast break, Foster is the trailer, he sprints to the corner and hits a 3 off a Stockton dish. Foster then struts back down the court, shooting imaginary pistols in both hands like an old west gunfighter.

Agreed about the Jazz today … the Stockton/Malone pick and roll would just as devastating. If they were coming into the league today, Malone would work on stretching his range to the 3-point line, while Stockton and Hornacek would get comfortable stopping and popping from Steph/Klay range when they had an open look. 

 

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 I think you are being a little generous in reference to Greg fosters outside shooting prowess. The guy made 20 3s overall in a 13 year career and shot them at a 22% clip. 

[cohenbc1Participant]

 Wow I looked him up and you’re right. And he only made three in his playoff career with the Jazz. I swear they must have all been in the finals against the Bulls! Or maybe that one he made was so epic, it somehow turned into multiple 3s in my mind.

[elliotmcadooParticipant]

I understand Gonzaga back then was not the Gonzaga today. If you had the number’s Stockton put up as a senior they were ridiclous. Dude averaged like 21 a game with 7 dimes and also 3.9 steals a game while also shooting an unbelievable 58% clip from the field as a 5 foot 11 guy that we can agree had average to slightly under average athletism. CP3 was a better prospect due to his athletism but the two remind me of each other from the small sample size i’ve seen of John Stockton. Guys under 6 foot who were elite passers, play good defense and could score when they want but like to keep teammates involved more than their own scoring output. I believe in today’s game due to his defense he still would have been drafted in late lotto to mid 20’s. Might have even been drafted by the Jazz with the pick they used on Grayson Allen this year to put next to Donovan Mitchell. With Rudy Gobert that would have been a perfect guy to pair with this team. 

[StephGoneStephParticipant]

Maybe Luke Ridnour is a good benchmark? Not super athletic and only 6’2 compared to Stockton’s 6’1. Average 19.7 and 6.6 assits with 1.9 steals as a junior compared to 20.9, 7.2 and 3.9 Stockton had as a Senior. Ridnour was drafted 14th overall in 2004. 

 

 

I guess those numbers will still get you noticed even if you’re not the greated physical specimen?

 

Dan Dickau- also a 6’1 or so 4-year Gonzaga product got drafted 28th in 2002 despite not being a score-first guy.

 

 

 

 

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